How do trades affect the 5 sales per year?

[damngato]

Not sure if this has been answered before or even if a definite answer exists.

I know you are limited to 5 pistol sales (be it one or several on one DROS) in a calendar year. How does a trade play into this? It's my understanding the limit is in place so you're not running a business but since a trade would have a corresponding DROS you can point to going the other way are they counted in the 5? Any precedent with this?

Thanks

[P5Ret]

Not sure if this has been answered before or even if a definite answer exists.

I know you are limited to 5 pistol sales in a calendar year. How does a trade play into this? It's my understanding the limit is in place so you're not running a business but since a trade would have a corresponding DROS you can point to going the other way are they counted in the 5? Any precedent with this?

Thanks

One is limited to 5 private transfer's, not sales. So I'd imagine that a trade would count as a transfer.

[OCEquestrian]

Is the 5 guns a hard and fast law?

Someone should challenge this .. what if a collector wants to liquidate a large collection.. needs money, becomes too old / disabled etc...

I think the doj will look at when the guns were acquired versus when they are being sold.. I would hope.

[OlderThanDirt]

[Philosophical]

In CA...
No more than 5 handgun transactions a year.
However, you can transfer multiple handguns during one transaction.

Long guns can not be frequent.


Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

[OCEquestrian]

In CA...
No more than 5 handgun transactions a year.
However, you can transfer multiple handguns during one transaction.

Long guns can not be frequent.


Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

Seems ripe for a 5th Amendment challenge ...restricting me from disposing of my property as I see fit...as long as I obey the laws for sale of the guns..

[Librarian]

Seems ripe for a 5th Amendment challenge ...restricting me form disposing of my property as I see fit...as long as I obey the laws for sale of the guns..

The overt point here is to discourage un-licensed gun dealers. (One might speculate on less-obvious intentions.)

We don't hear much about enforcement of this limit, but that may mean DOJ prefers to apply resources to other problems.

[FalconLair]

The overt point here is to discourage un-licensed gun dealers. (One might speculate on less-obvious intentions.)

We don't hear much about enforcement of this limit, but that may mean DOJ prefers to apply resources to other problems.

yes, but it still seems like the "spirit of the law" relies entirely on whomever the DOJ decides to go after and it still puts gun owners in the uncomfortable position of rolling the dice when it comes to selling their property

[Uncivil Engineer]

The overt point here is to discourage un-licensed gun dealers. (One might speculate on less-obvious intentions.)



We don't hear much about enforcement of this limit, but that may mean DOJ prefers to apply resources to other problems.

How is this limit still required if all transfers go through an FFL? Since ppts must go through a California FFL what does it matter, how is a collector an unlicensed dealer? The transfers are processed by dealers and the one in 30 limits would still apply? So 5 handguns a year a is OK but 6 more is a danger?

[BCA142]

How is this limit still required if all transfers go through an FFL? Since ppts must go through a California FFL what does it matter, how is a collector an unlicensed dealer? The transfers are processed by dealers and the one in 30 limits would still apply? So 5 handguns a year a is OK but 6 more is a danger?

Unless the law has changed, PPT is not subject to the 1 in 30 restriction. As long as it is between two private parties you could do a PPT 1, 2, 3 times a week with multiple firearms on each PPT transfer. Also if you have a COE, Certificate of Eligibility, you can purchase multiple new firearms on one DROS including hand guns. Again unless the law has changed recently.

[Uncivil Engineer]

Unless the law has changed, PPT is not subject to the 1 in 30 restriction. As long as it is between two private parties you could do a PPT 1, 2, 3 times a week with multiple firearms on each PPT transfer. Also if you have a COE, Certificate of Eligibility, you can purchase multiple new firearms on one DROS including hand guns. Again unless the law has changed recently.

Who gets a COE that isn't a FFL? Is this about limiting gun shop employees?

How is 3 times a week, but you can't as it would need to be infrequent for long guns and 5 or less hand guns.

[Librarian]

How is this limit still required if all transfers go through an FFL? Since ppts must go through a California FFL what does it matter, how is a collector an unlicensed dealer? The transfers are processed by dealers and the one in 30 limits would still apply? So 5 handguns a year a is OK but 6 more is a danger?

That question is best addressed to the legislature, who made the rule.

At least there is a number, arbitrary as it may be; Feds seem to leave it up to suspicion.

[TKM]

If you are gonna drop the coin on a COE may as well get a Curio and Relics FFL as well. 03FFL for collectors only, not to do business with. $30 for three years.

That pesky limit goes away too.

This is part of an article that was posted in Shotgun News back in the day.



What the Heck is a Curio And Relics FFL?
by Bill Shadish


OVERVIEW
~~~~~~~~~

"Yes. This rifle is C&R eligible..."

These are Happy words indeed to a person carrying a 03 FFL (Federal Firearms
License). Being C&R (Curio and Relic) eligible, this particular firearm can
be purchased with a specialized 03 FFL, which is also known as a C&R FFL.

Holding a C&R FFL does not make you a dealer; rather it is a special license
for firearms collectors. The major advantage to having a C&R FFL is that
you can purchase firearms across state lines and receive them directly, just
as a standard 01 FFL holder can. However, the 03 FFL does not entitle you
to be in the business of reselling these firearms as a standard 01 dealer
would do.

This article will take you through the how and whys of having a C&R FFL.

We begin with the history of the C&R FFL, followed by how to get one. After
this are collecting thoughts and tips from several well-known C&R FFL
holders. Finally, we will wrap up the article with a list of websites of
interest to firearm collectors.


ORIGINS
~~~~~~~

The C&R FFL was established, in 1968, as part of Gun Control Act (18 U.S.C.
Chapter 44) of 68. A C&R FFL is a way for a collector of curios or relics (
definition below) to "transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios or relics
in interstate or foreign commerce, and to dispose of curios or relics in
interstate or foreign commerce to any other Federal firearms licensee." The
privileges conferred by this license extend only to curio or relic
transactions.

It is an important point to note right up front, that one sentence in this
legislation is "Subject to other applicable provisions of the law and
regulations...". This means that local laws can and do impact what you can
do with a C&R FFL.

If you are unsure of something, be sure to check the local and state laws.
At the end of this article are some sites to help in looking for this
additional information.


So What IS a Curio and Relic?

At a high level, the answer is a military firearm that is 50 or more years
old. There are (of course) exceptions of inclusion and exclusion to this
high level rule, which we will go into more depth below.

ATF defines a firearm as a Curio and Relic IF it "Has been manufactured at
least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas; OR, is
certified by the curator of a municipal, state or Federal museum which
exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; OR derives a
substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel,
rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical
figure, period, or event."

Do lots of research and pony up the thirty bucks.

[BCA142]

Unless the law has changed, PPT is not subject to the 1 in 30 restriction. As long as it is between two private parties you could do a PPT 1, 2, 3 times a week with multiple firearms on each PPT transfer. Also if you have a COE, Certificate of Eligibility, you can purchase multiple new firearms on one DROS including hand guns. Again unless the law has changed recently.

I was looking at the PPT from a buyers point of perspective. The COE has its benefits also with the new ammo background checks. As was said above, combined with the Federal 03 Curio & Relics license more restrictions go away. You can also buy ammo on line and have it shipped to your door step. It is all so confusing which is what Sacramento wants.