Lets have some changes here.....

[jemaddux]

I am always sitting around here at work looking at the boards. One big thing I notice is a lot of the threads are complaining about this or that and so and so is taking away my guns. Well the biggest way to get things changed is through education on firearms. That is where I would love to see some changes. I have NO claim to knowing everything about firearms. I do know the AR series well and how to build them pretty good so now and then I may chime up and say this and that but there are people that are here that know them better then myself. My thing is long range shooting I love and back country and desert survival (thanks to the Army). I am going to be doing my first AK build this weekend and with much help from Grammaton76 I think it will go just fine. But this is only because I took the time to ask the questions. What I am getting at is I would like to see more education threads going for newer shooters. May new shooters are just going out and buying ammo because of price and can't figure out why they are not getting any better in shooting. If I was to ask the question of:

If you were to hold in your hand a roundball perfectly identical to the one being shot , at exactly the same level above the ground; make the Line of Bore of the gun exactly parallel to the earth; fire the gun, and at the exact instant the ball clears the muzzle, drop the ball from your hand. Which ball would hit the ground first? And why?

By understanding this question more new shooters can improve thier shooting. Just a thought from me for the day, as older shooters lets start getting information out for new shooters can understand and will continue shooting because they are improving.

[bwiese]

Good one, James...

[Sig226]

While not true, the answer is the same time.

However, wind gusts, force on the ball being dropped, and timing would make this impossible, if not simply improbable.

[PanzerAce]

hard to say which would hit first. On the one hand, assuming you were standing in the middle of a perfectly spherical plain (on the earth, since it isnt actually flat), then the one in your hand would hit first (since the one being shot actually has to fall farther). However, then you have to take into account the fact that you are shooting a ball. As such, it will be affected by slightly differing air pressures as it flies more than the one falling will. EVEN FURTHER, wind, combined with rising and falling air pressures as the projectile flies will also influence its course.

Also, if you are at any hieght, and firing over long enough distances, you might even have to take into account the rotation of the earth, as well as it's orbit around the sun and the time of day, but at that point my knowledge about physics starts to get a little hazy.

In other words, with alot of physics knowledge, no idea which would hit first without more info. Basic physics knowledge, then they would hit at the same time

[wildcard]

It's like high school physics all over again. The bullet coming out of the gun would actually land insignificantly later than the one dropped from the hand due to the earth being round. Think of the bore line as a tangent line to the earth. The further out the bulles goes.. the the more it has to drop before touching earth. I suppose this would be significant if your bullet traveled at 10000 FPS..

[Clodbuster]

The Earth may be round, but for 2000yds of it, it's flat as a pancake...

Clod

It's like high school physics all over again. The bullet coming out of the gun would actually land insignificantly later than the one dropped from the hand due to the earth being round. Think of the bore line as a tangent line to the earth. The further out the bulles goes.. the the more it has to drop before touching earth. I suppose this would be significant if your bullet traveled at 10000 FPS..

[PanzerAce]

Oh, and I forgot to add: if the bullet being fired was fast enough, the one you drop would land an infinite amount of time earlier than the one you fired (assuming that the one you fired had enoung velocity to break atmo, orbit, and the gravitational pull of the sun)

[Sig226]

Oh, and I forgot to add: if the bullet being fired was fast enough, the one you drop would land an infinite amount of time earlier than the one you fired (assuming that the one you fired had enoung velocity to break atmo, orbit, and the gravitational pull of the sun)

LOL, I had you all beat, however I didn't think of that one. Orbit...lol

Some how I don't think these were the changes the thread starter had invisioned. LOL

[Clodbuster]

Depends on velocity... if fired really fast, the bullet would travel back in time and land before the 2nd bullet was even cast

Clod

Oh, and I forgot to add: if the bullet being fired was fast enough, the one you drop would land an infinite amount of time earlier than the one you fired (assuming that the one you fired had enoung velocity to break atmo, orbit, and the gravitational pull of the sun)

[Fjold]

Don't forget that the gyroscopic precession of the spinning bullet will effect the fall rate.

[ohsmily]

If you were to hold in your hand a roundball perfectly identical to the one being shot , at exactly the same level above the ground; make the Line of Bore of the gun exactly parallel to the earth; fire the gun, and at the exact instant the ball clears the muzzle, drop the ball from your hand. Which ball would hit the ground first? And why?

I am sure you would like us to answer "at the same time" b/c gravity is acting on them equally and the forward vector doesn't affect the downward vector...However, this is only true under perfect, theoretical conditions, not actual conditions due to curvature of the Earth, wind conditions, and other external factors that might alter bullet path.

P.S. The answer to your quaint quandary, in my opinion, has nothing to do with why many rifle shooters don't "improve" (I am referring to rifle shooters b/c your little question has no bearing on most forms of handgun shooting). Most rifle shooters aren't even involved in practical shooting nor do they have the desire or drive to actually improve. Many shooters just plink or "precision shoot" at 100 yards from a solid bench. They don't have any need to understand 'bullet drop', ballistics, milliradians, and the finer points of elevation adjustments on their scope. (they just blast away in the desert or with their rifles at the 25 yard indoor range). The average rifle shooter would improve simply by understanding how their equipment works and doing actual shooting practice instead of watching how cool things look when you shoot them them at 30 yards in the desert, or practicing under 'sterile' conditions by benchrest shooting solely at 100 yards (which has little to no practical benefit)

[Clodbuster]

How does that affect the fall rate??

Clod

Don't forget that the gyroscopic precession of the spinning bullet will effect the fall rate.

[jemaddux]

While not true, the answer is the same time.

However, wind gusts, force on the ball being dropped, and timing would make this impossible, if not simply improbable.

Why is it not true?

Why would wind gust have anything to do with a fall object? Wouldn't the wind just move the object from side to side?

Wouldn't the force on both cause the bullet to fall at a rate of 32.17 feet per second?

[Sig226]

Why is it not true?

Why would wind gust have anything to do with a fall object? Wouldn't the wind just move the object from side to side?

Well, wind and gusts often do move other directions than horizontal to the ground.

What if you shot over a cliff with an up draft?

Aside from that, even a steady "sideways wind" is going to modify the path, and the affects of gravity, if only messurable on a macro scale.

Wouldn't the force on both cause the bullet to fall at a rate of 32.17 feet per second?

The point is, because two objects cannot occupy the same physical space at the same time---they are subject to influences that could be significantly different only inches apart. (Due to the fact that the bullet will travel a couple hundred yards shot parrallel to the ground a couple inches is understating the problem.)

However, in a vacuum, with a flat plane as "ground", with the same constant gravity--- They would hit at the same time.


This is similar to the old- "If you were to drop a pound of feathers, and a pound of lead from a 10 story building at the same time---Which would hit first?"

Well most people would say the lead, however the "answer" is really the same time.

Well, that's not true either! The lead would "most likely" hit first since it would have less wind resistance, or drag than lead--Unless of course the lead was flattened and made into a parachute type shape, while the feathers are condensed into the tightest, most dense ball possible. Then the feathers would hit first.

All joking aside--this question does help new shooters realize what bullet drop is, how much they will be affected by it, and gives them a chance to counter act it. Good post based on critical thinking, however it did use flawed science.

Note: I typed this msg in less than a minute with no spelling check---Ohsmilly we need your help "Cleanup on isle 6"

[jemaddux]

I am sure you would like us to answer "at the same time" b/c gravity is acting on them equally and the forward vector doesn't affect the downward vector...However, this is only true under perfect, theoretical conditions, not actual conditions due to curvature of the Earth, wind conditions, and other external factors that might alter bullet path.

P.S. The answer to your quaint quandary, in my opinion, has nothing to do with why many rifle shooters don't "improve" (I am referring to rifle shooters b/c your little question has no bearing on most forms of handgun shooting). Most rifle shooters aren't even involved in practical shooting nor do they have the desire or drive to actually improve. Many shooters just plink or "precision shoot" at 100 yards from a solid bench. They don't have any need to understand 'bullet drop', ballistics, milliradians, and the finer points of elevation adjustments on their scope. (they just blast away in the desert or with their rifles at the 25 yard indoor range). The average rifle shooter would improve simply by understanding how their equipment works and doing actual shooting practice instead of watching how cool things look when you shoot them them at 30 yards in the desert, or practicing under 'sterile' conditions by benchrest shooting solely at 100 yards (which has little to no practical benefit)

This is why I decided to just stop paying attention really to anything you have to say Ohsmily. Everything here you said wrong, can be proved wrong and so on. Your right back at your I am right and you are wrong speech. According to you here, all they need to do is join USPSA shoot one match and they become the expert. I am sure that the Army would be happy to hear that, you can email them and tell them they are wrong also http://www.arl.army.mil/main/Main/default.htm.

I figure with thirty years of shooting, Army experiance (all my expert badges) and still training a few days a week might make me know just a little on how to shoot.

I can take, um lets say a Glock 17 and load one 9mm round into it and you hit the target, now I can change the load and make it for you over shoot the target or under shoot the target. And this is what I am talking about, education will give you knowledge to know when this is happening and to know how to take care of it.