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  • #16
    fiddletown
    Veteran Member
    • Jun 2007
    • 4928

    Originally posted by 1Carguy
    ...Any suggestions?
    Come take our class.

    I'm with a group of instructors who put on a monthly Basic Handgun class (originally it was an NRA Basic Handgun class -- our class hasn't changed but the NRA class has). Probably 80% to 90% of our students had never touched a real gun before. Our class enrollment runs roughly 30% female. We have students of all ages from early 20s to us more seasoned types. We've had entire families attend together.

    After classroom preparation students start live fire with .22s. After the students fire their 25 rounds of .22 (working one-on-one with an instructor), we put out a variety of guns from 9mm to .44 Magnum so the students can get the experience of firing the larger calibers. Shooting the centerfire guns is at each student's option. Most fire them all, but some choose not to.

    During the live fire exercises it's not uncommon for a student, who has never fired a handgun before, to shoot 2 to 3 inch groups at seven yards with even the heavy calibers. A few months ago, a petite young woman who had never fired any type of gun before out shot everyone, including her husband, with the .44 Magnum -- putting three rounds into about an inch at 7 yards.

    This is how we teach the fundamentals of firing the gun:
    1. The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight (or the reticle if using a scope) as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."

    2. One wants to place his finger on the trigger in a manner that facilitates that. Usually, the best place for the finger to contact the trigger will be the middle of the portion of the finger between the first knuckle and the fingertip, and that part of the finger should be perpendicular to the direction in which the trigger moves.

      1. With some triggers, e. g., heavy double action triggers with a long travel, that placement might not provide enough leverage to work the trigger smoothly. In such cases, the trigger may be placed at the first joint.

      2. In either case, the trigger finger needs to be curved away from the gun sufficiently to allow it to press the trigger straight back without the trigger finger binding or applying lateral pressure to the gun. If one has to reach too far to get his finger properly on the trigger (or turn the gun to the point that the axis of the barrel is significantly misaligned with the forearm), the gun is too big. (For example, I have a short trigger reach and can't properly shoot some handguns, like N frame Smith & Wesson revolvers double action.)


      1. Again, remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

      2. Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something poorly, you will become an expert at doing it poorly.


    3. Many people are uncomfortable with the idea of the gun firing "by surprise." They feel that when using the gun for practical applications, e. g., hunting or self defense, they need to be able to make the gun fire right now. But if you try to make the gun fire right now, you will almost certainly jerk the trigger thus jerking the gun off target and missing your shot. That's where the "compressed surprise break" comes in.

      1. As you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. In other words, that period of uncertainty during which the shot might break, but you don't know exactly when, becomes vanishingly short. And that is the compressed surprise break.

      2. Jeff Cooper explains the compressed surprise break in this video beginning at 36:04. This article by Jeff Campbell and this article by Jim Wilson might also be helpful.


    4. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.

      1. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

        1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

        2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;

        3. conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and

        4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.


      2. To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.

      3. I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.

      4. To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.

      5. If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.
    "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

    Comment

    • #17
      lexanidubs09
      Member
      • Jun 2014
      • 241

      I have the same issue that is slowly getting better. I've been using the MantisX for around 6 months now and it's helped me quite a bit. I admittedly don't dry fire practice as much as I should but when I do it helps me focus on problems that show up consistently. Some good advice in this thread so far.

      Mantis firearm training systems help shooters improve accuracy with dry fire training, laser training, shooting drills, and app-guided feedback. Practice at home or on the range to build trigger control, refine shooting mechanics, and improve marksmanship with smart pistol and rifle training tools.

      Comment

      • #18
        Ross
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2009
        • 1284

        Originally posted by HopetonBrown
        Please stop posting this.

        https://youtu.be/Qyn87AMVXO4

        Are you on crack? One of the better training props out there.

        I used it, seen it used, and seen/ heard it recommended with much success in the past. The times it didn't work fell into three categories, of which the first two were about 90% of the issue; first, the shooter didn't understand what the verbiage meant (too much finger, anticipating, etc), second, their gun's sights were off, or third, the other 10% (gun didn't like the ammo, barrel afu, etc).

        Don't believe everything you see on ewe-tube or you may ruin your kool-aid/apple phone by setting the microwave oven to the incorrect power setting when recharging your phone.
        sigpicand as a check against tyranny." Judge Benitez - March 2019

        Comment

        • #19
          Mister Coffee
          Member
          • Nov 2013
          • 322

          @ mansysinatra: Good videos. Thank you.

          I'm one of those people for whom the thumbs-forward grip doesn't work. I don't know why. Also, no matter how hard I practice, I just cannot wear my sunglasses on the back of my neck. It seems like the sun still gets in my eyes.

          Comment

          • #20
            EvoXguy
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2015
            • 731

            Hey OP, are you using the weaver stance ?
            Peace through superior firepower

            Comment

            • #21
              caliguy93
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2016
              • 1512

              This is why

              Comment

              • #22
                russ69
                Calguns Addict
                • Nov 2009
                • 9348

                25 yards is a standard distance but it's very difficult. Even top shooters don't shoot perfect scores on a NRA target. Move your target in closer to help gain confidence. 10 yards is about right.
                sigpic

                Comment

                • #23
                  steel30
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 2042

                  Good info in this thread...
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    OCEquestrian
                    Calguns Addict
                    • Jun 2017
                    • 6906

                    Originally posted by 1Carguy
                    I'm a newbie senior guy that just bought a new 9 mm Sig SP2022. I haven't shot in decades but after 2 times to the range and about 250 rounds, I'm really having fun....except I'm a lousy shot. Any suggestions?
                    Step up to the plate and pay the $$ for some professional training!!!!
                    "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ----Sen. Barry Goldwater

                    Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin

                    NRA life member
                    SAF life member
                    CRPA member

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      bigmike82
                      Bit Pusher
                      CGN Contributor
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 3876

                      "Just grip the gun moar hard, particularly with the support hand."

                      No way. You're shooting, not trying to choke the pistol out.
                      -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        tbc
                        Calguns Addict
                        • Jun 2011
                        • 5955

                        Want to know the secret?

                        Here ya go:

                        Do not let the muzzle move (or minimize the muzzle movement) when the bullet exit the barrel.

                        How?
                        Dry fire and focus on the front sight. If it moves when you press the trigger, change your technique. If the problem continues, take a lesson.

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          billped
                          Veteran Member
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 2504

                          OP, I'm in Danville. Let me know if you want to meet up at one of the local ranges. I'm far from the best shot on this board, but I've helped countless people move from, "lucky to get on paper" to "not bad, not bad at all". It's typically the basics: how do you hold the gun, where are you focusing, how do you place your finger on the trigger, are you anticipating the "bang", and are you pulling or squeezing .

                          If nothing else we can chat about cars or other gun topics. Let me know via PM .
                          Bill

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            EvoXguy
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2015
                            • 731

                            I think a lot people trip to much on shot placement anyways. Oh noes it's a little to the left or right. As long as you can punch a grip of holes in center mass then you're all good.
                            Peace through superior firepower

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              kmas
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2014
                              • 1315

                              Milking the gun perhaps?
                              Usually moves left and down for a rightie

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                EvoXguy
                                Senior Member
                                • Oct 2015
                                • 731

                                Originally posted by HopetonBrown
                                If you are fine with mediocrity.

                                If what you call neutralizing an advancing threat "mediocrity" then yes I'm DAMN fine with that
                                Peace through superior firepower

                                Comment

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