What is the argument against PPT requiring BG check in other states?

[Epaphroditus]

Ultimately it's the 10th amendment. Each state decides how to handle PPT. Same with new purchases by CCW holders (exempt from NICS on federal level).

NICS has only been around since 1998. Before that BGC we all instituted at the state level (if they were required at all).

Getting around NICS is trivial. A friend or associate simply makes the purchase for their felonious associate and then hands then the firearm. NICS is powerless to stop these straw purchases and this is a primary route for criminals to obtain firearms. Not a single or the myriad proposals to 'improve' NICS addresses the straw purchase.

The only net effect of NICS and 'improvements' are further erosion of our civil rights. Thats a strong arguement to scrap the whole system.

Criminals using weapons shot dead in commission of a crime and sentencing enhancements are the most practical solution to 'gun crime'.

[dustoff31]

In states where no ffl is needed to conduct a PPT transfer, what are the arguments against supporting a push to require all transfers to undergo a background check?

I’m posting this because it is my weakest area when having gun debates and feel like I could use some help

I won't provide an argument against it as such, just some of the practical effects in trying to do so. I'm in AZ so I'll use that as an example.

Assume I want to sell a gun privately and want to do a background check on the buyer. Who do I call? Private persons are prohibited from using the NICS system. There is a federal court ruling that local police and sheriffs are not required to do federal background checks, so they don't. (Mack/Princz vs. US) FFLs won't call NICS for a sale that doesn't involve them. So again, how would I even do a background check?

Now let's address the background system itself. It's crap. Except for the LV murderer, every one of the last shooter in the past many years should have been in the NICS system as a prohibited possessor but they were not for one reason or another. Usually carelessness or incompetence on the part of those entrusted to input information and operate the system.

I saw some numbers awhile back that said only about half of the people who should be in NICS as prohibited are actually in there. I don't know if that is accurate, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. Even AZ, who is fairly diligent in that admits it is only about 75-80% complete.

In summary, there simply is no means for me to run a background check. And even if I could, the current system is grossly unreliable.

So, to those who tout universal background checks. Show me a system that is reliable and provide me access to it, then we can talk about whether I should use it or not.

[bohoki]

i would love if there was someway a buyer could call a number and have themselves cleared for an immediate purchase that a seller could verify

but my only argument against it is why should i not be able to sell or give a friend ive known for 20 years a firearm without going through all kinds of hassle

[rugershooter]

Background check /= Confiscation List
Registration = Confiscation List

How do you have a background check system that isn't a defacto registration system? Conducting a background check on a person for the purpose of a firearm purchase may not be a "X person has gun, serial number xxx" system, but I would think that it would be enough for an investigator to figure out that if a person has had a firearm purchase background check conducted, that the person owns guns.

[dustoff31]

How do you have a background check system that isn't a defacto registration system? Conducting a background check on a person for the purpose of a firearm purchase may not be a "X person has gun, serial number xxx" system, but I would think that it would be enough for an investigator to figure out that if a person has had a firearm purchase background check conducted, that the person owns guns.

That's easy. Everyone is entered into some database or given a, well, let's call it a certificate of elegibility card.

It doesn't say you do or you don't own guns, just that you can if you want to. Names are then removed from the list if they become prohibited possessors.

You want a gun, you go to the gun store, or even a private party, they check the database to make sure your card is still good, you pay your money and take your gun. The end.

[rugershooter]

That's easy. Everyone is entered into some database or given a, well, let's call it a certificate of elegibility card.

It doesn't say you do or you don't own guns, just that you can if you want to. Names are then removed from the list if they become prohibited possessors.

You want a gun, you go to the gun store, or even a private party, they check the database to make sure your card is still good, you pay your money and take your gun. The end.

That can still be tracked. In order to get some type of certificate of eligibility card, the government needs some kind of identifying information, i.e., a name, fingerprints, etc.
The gov't gets the identifying information, verifies your background is clean, and issues a COE which is verified as valid if/when you purchase a gun.
But why would anyone get a COE unless they want to buy a gun? It may not be definitive yes/no ownership registration, but it is a "COE holder is very likely to own firearms" registration.

[dustoff31]

That can still be tracked. In order to get some type of certificate of eligibility card, the government needs some kind of identifying information, i.e., a name, fingerprints, etc.
The gov't gets the identifying information, verifies your background is clean, and issues a COE which is verified as valid if/when you purchase a gun.
But why would anyone get a COE unless they want to buy a gun? It may not be definitive yes/no ownership registration, but it is a "COE holder is very likely to own firearms" registration.

So give everybody one. I mean everybody. Link it to their SSN or whatever.

One big benefit of such a system as I see it would be to force the anti's to publically answer the question, "So what are you more interested in? Trying to keep guns from people who shouldn't have them, or knowing who does have guns and what kind/quantity? i.e., registration"

We know the answer to that, but it might wake others up a bit.

[rugershooter]

So give everybody one. I mean everybody. Link it to their SSN or whatever.

One big benefit of such a system as I see it would be to force the anti's to publically answer the question, "So what are you more interested in? Trying to keep guns from people who shouldn't have them, or knowing who does have guns and what kind/quantity? i.e., registration"

We know the answer to that, but it might wake others up a bit.

There are still ways for them to track gun ownership. OK, so you give one to everyone. But that still means a background check has to be conducted on each individual who is issued one. That means either you're conducting background checks on every single American adult, or you're conducting the background check on the individual at the time of purchase. You would still need a mechanism of blacklisting an individual upon conviction of a crime or need to periodically verify the validity of the background check. No matter how it's done, there's no way to conduct a background check on an individual without having a method of linking a person to a gun purchase.
That's the problem. Any possible way of conducting background checks also creates a way to track who owns guns. Some might take more work than others to track, but it's still possible. When there's a way to link a background check of an individual to a gun purchase, that creates a way to register guns and/or gun owners.

[dustoff31]

There are still ways for them to track gun ownership. OK, so you give one to everyone. But that still means a background check has to be conducted on each individual who is issued one. That means either you're conducting background checks on every single American adult, or you're conducting the background check on the individual at the time of purchase. You would still need a mechanism of blacklisting an individual upon conviction of a crime or need to periodically verify the validity of the background check. No matter how it's done, there's no way to conduct a background check on an individual without having a method of linking a person to a gun purchase.
That's the problem. Any possible way of conducting background checks also creates a way to track who owns guns. Some might take more work than others to track, but it's still possible. When there's a way to link a background check of an individual to a gun purchase, that creates a way to register guns and/or gun owners.

Yeah, well background checks are not going to just go away, and in many instances may well get worse. We need to think about ways to minimize the damage.

As the saying goes, "If you are not at the table, you are on the menu."

[bombadillo]

Because the burden should be on the buyer. If they purchase a firearm knowing that they are prohibited, then they have broken the law. It should not be on the seller to do the background check, and if you give an inch, they take 3000 miles and a wall.

[rugershooter]

Yeah, well background checks are not going to just go away, and in many instances may well get worse. We need to think about ways to minimize the damage.

As the saying goes, "If you are not at the table, you are on the menu."

Unfortunately, background checks aren't going anywhere.

Background check /= Confiscation List
Registration = Confiscation List

I'm just refuting the above statement. There is no way to conduct a background check on a person without also having the ability to link the background check to a specific person and linking that specific person to -at minimum- the likelihood the the specific person owns guns. It is, in essence, a defacto registration of gun owners.

Background check = registration = confiscation list. Whether that confiscation will ever happen is debatable. But that's another topic.

[Cokebottle]

How do you have a background check system that isn't a defacto registration system?

Free states do it all the time.
The NICS check is a simple phone call, then they wait for the return call.

Same as when you want to drive on-base to visit the White Sands Missle Park or Trinity site.

Free states complete the 4473 and call in the BG check. The information on the 4473 goes into the FFL's files. It is only turned over to the BATFE if and when the FFL goes out of business.

If an AZ resident buys a brand new gun from a dealer in AZ, NOBODY in the government has a clue who bought that gun.

[rugershooter]

Free states do it all the time.
The NICS check is a simple phone call, then they wait for the return call.

Same as when you want to drive on-base to visit the White Sands Missle Park or Trinity site.

Free states complete the 4473 and call in the BG check. The information on the 4473 goes into the FFL's files. It is only turned over to the BATFE if and when the FFL goes out of business.

If an AZ resident buys a brand new gun from a dealer in AZ, NOBODY in the government has a clue who bought that gun.

I've bought guns in a free state, I know how they work. But I'm saying that somebody, somewhere has to know that person X was background checked for a gun purchase. That's the nature of a background check. The legality or likelihood of ATF or any other government agency maintaining a database of PII when the 4473/ background check is conducted is irrelevant. The background check makes it possible to collect such information. That's the issue.

If an AZ resident buys a brand new gun from a dealer in AZ, NOBODY in the government has a clue who bought that gun

How can that be true? If they don't have any identifying information about the person in question, they can't do a background check. Not maintaining a database of the information is different, though.

[Epaphroditus]

How many times has info from NICS (I mean the info on 4473) been used to solve a crime? Think about some scenarios and find its mostly pointless.

How is NICS info searched? 4473 exist in local FFL files unless the went out of business. Paper files that must be searched manually.

Suspect caught in possession - what's NICS provide?

Firearm found with defaced serial number - NICS provides nothing.

Really, go into the details of how the info is used and it is mostly an utter waste.

[HighWildFree]