Should FFL who overcharge (illegally) be prosecuted?

[Matt C]

There are a number of FFLs charging more than the law allows for PPTs. Should they be prosecuted or should we just let them violate the law since they are providing a valuable service?

ETA: So to clarify, this poll is in reference to FFLs that have been informed of the law, and are knowingly violating it.

[USN CHIEF]

, I say prosecute them. That is just wrong trying to take advantage of us like that. ****, I don't make a lot of money and I sure as hell don't want to pay more than what the law requires them to do because they were granted the FFL. PPT is a service to the citizens of CA so that guns are transfered legally and don't get in the wrong hands.

[sorensen440]

If they charge more then they are legally allowed to then they are not on the side of gun owners.

[DDT]

You really need another option. I think they should be penalized but that doesn't mean prosecution. Refunds all around based on their logbooks and an additional penalty should be able to be done as an administrative fine rather than putting them out of business.

[Matt C]

You really need another option. I think they should be penalized but that doesn't mean prosecution. Refunds all around based on their logbooks and an additional penalty should be able to be done as an administrative fine rather than putting them out of business.

I don't think a misdemeanor charge under PC 12082 would put them out of business, it would probably result in a fine and maybe some community service.

What really irks me is that they are blatantly lying about the law in order to rip people off.

[B.D.Dubloon]

You really need another option. I think they should be penalized but that doesn't mean prosecution. Refunds all around based on their logbooks and an additional penalty should be able to be done as an administrative fine rather than putting them out of business.

+1 to this. I selected criminal penalty because the only other options were to not punish them at all. I think it would be a civil matter vs. criminal, and they should just have their ffl taken for a long enough time that they would be required to start the process of getting one all over again (which I doubt is cheap).

If a gun store tries to over charge you, CALL AND REPORT IT TO THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU!!! If they get a few bad reviews from the BBB, their business will start to suffer.

BDD

[Matt C]

+1 to this. I selected criminal penalty because the only other options were to not punish them at all. I think it would be a civil matter vs. criminal, and they should just have their ffl taken for a long enough time that they would be required to start the process of getting one all over again (which I doubt is cheap).

BDD

Again, I have no reason to think they would lose their FFL at all. This is going to be like a severe ticket.

[Black Majik]

While I'm strongly against FFLs charging more than $35, prosecuting with the result of losing an FFL is a lose-lose situation for us.

I feel we need all the FFLs we can get. I chose option #3, but very reluctantly. I wont support dealers who screw us over.

Edit: i just saw the post above mine from BWO. If it won't affect their FFL, then yes... I support #1.

[MonsterMan]

I say punish them. They are basically stealing from you.

[Ironchef]

You hate to lose an FFL when they are so rare and provide a good service (potentially), and because it effects gun culture poorly...but as sorensen said, if they are robbing gun owners/buyers, they are NOT on the side of gun owners.

If they have problems doing PPTs because it might keep them from other business, then they can arrange specific times (2 hour slot with staff just to handle them), or make appointments when someone requests a PPT...but sending people packing, illegally, to ppt elsewhere and charging more than is legal... They need to be given one chance to change their ways or get out of town.

So who's calling DVGW?

[Vacaville]

yelp em too
http://www.yelp.com/biz/diablo-valle...-pleasant-hill

I think that they are knowingly taking advantage of the fact that us California gun owners in the East and North Bay Area don't have many options when it comes to PPT.

I highly encourage people who have had personal experiences there, both good and bad, to write reviews about it. Word of mouth, or posting in a forum, goes a long way in making or breaking a business.

I live fairly close to this shop and was planning on going there since we also have issues with our local shop. Now I will probably go elsewhere.

[Matt C]

So who's calling DVGW?

I'm thinking about actually going to one of these FFLs, like the ones that have actual signs regarding their illegal fees, attempting a PPT for $35, and performing a privates person's arrest (PC 837) for violation of PC 12082. What that really means is I just call the cops on them and sign the statement that I observed them commit the misdemeanor and the cop writes them a ticket (notice to appear). Then they get a court date, I get subpoenaed to appear, and they probably plead guilty and get a small fine.

But maybe they, and other FFLs, stop doing this bs.

Ideally I'd like to do this close to home for obvious reasons.

[bwiese]

Let's not collaborate with our enemies. There are only 700 FFLs in CA, a species I'd like to see non-endangered.

• We have a shortage of FFLs in CA. Why add to the War on FFLs?
  Every closed FFL makes the DOJ/ATF's life easier. Every report of
  an issue further justifies staffing/budgeting to 'address' such issues.

• Typical amounts in dispute are usu in ~$10-$15 range. If that amount
  is that worrisome, you probably shouldn't be buying a $500 or $800 gun.
  It's a few Starbuck's lattes etc.

• FFLs are right that this is costing $$. The existence of this law was supposed
  to promote papered (re)sales but what it does is exert a tax on FFLs by
  undervaluing their time - esp now with the handgun 'safety demo' BS that
  uses avg 5-10 mins extra per handgun xfer.

• I would support legislation for an increase in the min. amount for PPT. DROSing/
  papering firearms won't go away in CA even if we have Insta-Check and No
  Waiting period - and the longer this fee does not inflate the worse the situation will get.

• I am far more offended by FFLs spreading FUD about CA gunlaws than
  about trivial PPT fee differences. I am far more offended by gunshops
  that curry favor w/DOJ folks for special exemptions (Evan's Gunsmithing).

• You can always vote with your feet and drive a few miles to another FFL.

[Matt C]

• We have a shortage of FFLs in CA. Why add to the War on FFLs?
  
  
• Typical amounts in dispute are usu in ~$10-$15 range. If that
  amount is that worrisome, you probably shouldn't be buying a $500
  or $800 gun.
  
  
• The FFL is right that this is costing $. The existence of this law
  was supposed to promote papered (re)sales but what it does is exert
  a tax on FFLs by undervaluing their time - esp now with the handgun
  'safety demo' BS that uses avg 5-10 mins extra per handgun xfer.
  
  
• I would support legislation for an increase in the min. amount
  for PPT. DROSing/papering firearms won't go away in CA and the
  longer this fee does not inflate the worse the situation will get.
  
  
• I am far more offended by FFLs spreading FUD about CA gunlaws
  than about trivial PPT fee differences. I am far more offended by
  gunshops that curry favor w/DOJ folks for special exemptions
  (Evan's Gunsmithing).
  

So you don't care that they are lying and taking money illegally? It's the principle of the thing to me.

[eta34]

Surprisingly and sadly , I agree with BWO. Many of us cry for accountability and integrity on this forum, but let FFL's slide because they are dwindling. To me, that is wrong. They know they law. They choose to break it.