Help with Firearms Statistics

[Epaphroditus]

Also make a point not to play the statistics game as no statistics of any kind can obliterate a specifically enumerated right (which Europeans do not enjoy).

[mikeyr]

my mother is not a terrorist, she lives in France and oops, she owns guns. So your friend is wrong about no guns in France. A rifle, 2 shotguns and one pistol (likely illegal to own the pistol she says, but its left over from "the war"). I so badly want to bring one of the shotguns to Calif. but I never even have looked into it just because I assume its impossible, it was my grandfather's, then my father's shotgun.

I can tell you that France used to be much less violent, even if a person had a gun it was not the first thing that was thought of when arguing with the neighbor unlike here in the U.S. where first thing people seem to think of is grab the gun. Guns over there are primarily hunting weapons, very few handguns in France compared to shotguns. In the U.S. we were raised differently and view guns in what my Dad used to the say the "cowboy way" of shoot first then ask questions (his point of view, not mine) while in France they try to work things out verbally, that is why we have more violence here. I think that is changing quickly over there and they soon will catch up to us, there are places in France that I no longer feel safe at where just 10 years ago I never gave safety a second thought.

[DaveInOroValley]

There is some decent info here:

http://www.guncite.com/

[jeremiah12]

The one thing the antis who cite European statistic do not grasp is that some European countries do not have restrictive gun control laws. Another thing they do not understand is that in some of the countries that do, the average person may not be so willing to abide by the laws.

Under the system of kings and subjects, they have a history of pretending to follow the rules set down by the rulers while still doing what they want to do and the rulers overlooking violations as long as they are not blatant and the person is not causing other issues or challenging the authority of the king or state. I read a fascinating essay on this topic several years ago.

Many people in France still have guns dating to WWII stored in basements along with the ammo for it. Others have newer guns stashed away for SHTF. Germans tend to be more law abiding and follow the rules, but there are areas of the country, especially the former east Germany, where many do not trust the government, so they are likely to keep a few guns hidden a way. I have a few relatives living there who do this. With the open borders of the EU, it is much easier to cross borders and buy guns in a country that has lax gun laws and drive back to your home country. The black market thrives in eastern Europe. In countries with lax laws, no identification is required, you have the money, they sell to you.

Then, in many European countries, the government controls the news, so not all murder by gun makes it to the news media. In addition, the government can manipulate the statistics. IIRC, in Australia, if a person is shot, but does not die of his wounds until 3 days after being shot, it does not count as death by gun violence. So it is extremely difficult to compare statistics across the board.

In Japan, any deaths of members of the crime syndicate members do not make any of the official statistics. Once one joins a triad or other crime family, they are no longer considered a member of society, so they are not counted for any official statistic. If they are shot to death, it does not count as a gun crime. In Japan though, death by edged weapons is much higher than here as well as death by suicide.

Ultimately, the violence rate in each society is different. Differences in society determine what is the most popular weapon to use or how acceptable it is to settle differences by killing another human being in the first place. It is societal values, not the tool used to harm life that is important. Take one tool away, another will be used. Ban a popular tool, people will make their own or get it on the black market.

I tell the antis I talk with, I will give up my guns as soon as 1) they can come up with a scheme that completely stops illegal drugs getting onto the streets of the US and prevents anyone from ever getting them, or 2) explain why it is okay to legalize drugs because the war on drugs is a failure but not okay to stop trying to make guns illegal even though the war on guns has been and will also be a failure and drugs have caused more deaths than guns, or 3) explain why prohibition failed so miserable and fix it so the war on guns will not fail and people, both law abiding and criminals will not be able to get guns from any source, legal or illegal.

I do remind them that no law has ever stopped anybody. People break laws all the time.

I have not had a single person take me up on this because it is an impossible challenge.

[L84CABO]

Some of my favorites to convert anti-gun people. I don't like to use partisan websites/groups numbers, but to use numbers from groups/organizations liberal people would consider less biased.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/sunday-review/the-assault-weapon-myth.html?_r=2

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/how-to-think-about-guns-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

You do have to be a little careful here. From what I've read, the US and the UK don't measure violent crime in the same way so it's not a direct comparison. The UK's violent crime rate may be as high as it is because they have a more lenient standard than the US for what constitutes a violent crime.

You also want to be careful arguing statistics with people in general. Because your civil rights are non negotiable. And they're damn sure not predicated on the appropriate positive or negative data point on some study somewhere.

[anothergunnut]

So if Americans murder more people with fists, is that because we have more fists than the French?