Gun Advocates making it hard for responsible gun owners

[dwalker]

First off, if you're going to be critical of what I or anyone else posted, I would appreciate the courtesy of a direct address. You know who you're referring to, and I know who you're referring to, and this passive-aggressive p-footing around doesn't make you any more diplomatic or "unifying."

Your not the only one who makes such comments, but indeed, you were amongst them.

So which is it? We withhold judgment until a formal investigation reveals the true facts? Or do we take the pieces we do have, try to fill in some details, and use it as a teachable moment while the incident itself is fresh in our head, while everyone else is still talking about it?

Actually I think where you go wrong is to "try and fill in some details", because we do not have any, really. We only "think" it was a 1911 used because a picture of one was shown. Not sure how we can use it as a "teachable moment", because
a: I already teach my son good gun handling and when he and the guns are in the car (truck in my case) the guns are out of his reach when his belt is fastened and he is where I can see him, not immediately behind me.
b: We do not have enough facts to determine what measures beyond those we already take might have prevented this. Thats why you cannot just point and say "well she should have locked them up or secured them better" because for all we know the gun was locked up in a bag, or secured in a holster and fell out.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Each instance of a negligent discharge is a teachable moment. No two situations are exactly alike, and there's a seemingly insignificant turn of fact that might have made all the difference in the world. Taking your automobile accidents scenario as an example, when I was learning to ride motorcycles, I read up on as many accident reports as I could. Sure, the classes and the textbooks describe the Search, Evaluate, and Execute strategy in the general sense, but knowing that alone doesn't make me a safe rider. Every accident report I internalized short circuits the learning process of what I need to look for during the Evaluate phase, as well as what I need to do to react to it while keeping the shiny side up. I think of it as feeding data points to an artificial intelligence computer, with each data point making the computer that much smarter and that much faster to be able to appropriately respond.

Sorry you dis-agree, but the fact is things happen. The idea is to have layers of safety- we teach our kids good gun handling and the absolutes- never point a gun at people, never "play" with a gun, guns are always loaded until you personally have checked, etc., we keep our loaded firearms away from children and non-shooters unless under direct supervision. We do not put loaded guns into range bags or cases, because you never know who might pull it out and ASSume it is unloaded. We have these layers of safety because if one layer is ignored the other layers are there to make up for it.

And so it is with negligent discharges. Thanks to this lady, I know I need to be extra careful in securing my firearm while I drive with my kid in the back. At least in California, we are required to store the firearm unloaded in a locked container. Because of this incident, maybe I'll go through the extra step of placing that locked container in my trunk, just so my kid doesn't open the locked container. If I am carrying concealed, maybe I need to check for the firearm after I strap my kid into her booster seat and before I start the car.

All valid points.

The end result speak for themselves. Regardless of whatever excuse or justification based on some preventative measure she may have already taken, it came up short, and she got shot unintentionally. The safety process broke down somewhere along the way, and we need to be our own harshest critics of that breakdown. Thankfully I have not had any negligent discharges, and I'd like to think part of the reason why is because I am as diligent as I can be with respect to safety. That's not to say I won't ever have a negligent discharge, but if it does, I deserve, and I expect the harshest criticisms of any of my shortcomings that is analyzed after the fact. Anything short of that is a disservice to my freedom to keep and bear firearms.

In motorcycle riding, there's a saying that it's a matter of when, not if, you'll drop your bike. I know of no corollary in the firearms realm.

With airplanes we have a saying I have adopted for the race cars, its "It takes three things to get you"
And by that they mean if your tired and the weather is good, sure go fly. If the weather is bad but you and the plane are both good, sure, go fly. If you have a headache, the weather is crap, and you just completed a repair to the lane and have not test flown it, stay on the ground. Generically just two things is bad, so dont go flying because the probablitity of a third thing coming up is too high. Same thing with the race cars. We cant fall out of the sky but we can sure crash.
Guns accidents are the same thing. Its not one level of safety that failed.
Had the kid gotten the gun but no full mag, no one gets shot
Kid gets the gun and an empty mag, no one gets shot.
Mommys gun falls on the floor of the truck, and he does as he has been taught and leaves it alone, no problem

layers of safety is what prevents issues, not catch alls like "why arent the guns locked up"

[dwalker]

The mother was negligent in leaving a loaded weapon where a child could get to it.

This in and of itself is not a negligent discharge, but did lead to an accidental- meaning the child did not intend to shoot his mother in the back- discharge. I realize we are batting around semantics but I kind of like to poke fun at people who have the hard and fast attitude that any discharge not at a target is an ND. i actually was at a match not long ago and saw a Pro shooter have an AD because he was having issues with his laser (night shoot) and AD'ed into a barrier. Totally safe but a total DQ as well.

Also we do not know the Mom was negligent, for all we know the gun fell from her holster or it was properly secured in a range bag. Its ASSumptions like this that I find so amusing and frustrating at the same time.

BTW, have you ever had an AD? I have. Once I was in a practice session working on a speed drill and as I drew the pistol (M&P IIRC) I jerked the trigger a bit early and sent one into the berm. Total AD, no where near on target yet. had I been in a match I would not have been DQ'ed (the round impacted far enough away from me) but we all knew it had no intention of pulling the trigger when I did. Completely safe, the gun was NEVER pointed in an unsafe direction and I never lost control of the weapon, however I actually felt like complete crap about it until I spoke with the instructor who told me that when you are pushing the envelope of your ability and trying to get faster you increase the chances for AD's. Interestingly enough, I have not had an AD since, in competition or practice.

[SamsDX]

On the matter of safety, I don't think we're in disagreement. You make good points about the layers of safeguards - that's what the 4 rules are all about; a failure of any one is not fatal, a failure of most (though not all) is not even fatal. It's the failure of all that is fatal, and that's the beauty of the whole thing.

Where we differ seems to be the level of criticism Ms. Gilt deserves, and how we consider/internalize this as well as any other negligent discharge incident.

Even though we lack certain details, I still stand by statement that it's useful for future prevention. Thanks to you and the rest of this thread, I was able to consider other possibilities of what might have occurred, and factor that into my future actions under similar circumstances. That alone was worth this discussion. I'm expecting to receive my final appointment for a CCW soon, and the possibility of my carry gun coming loose as you mentioned will make me check twice before I shut the door next my kid's seat. I already put my kid on the opposite side of me so I can see adequately, but now I can confirm that's the wise choice, especially if I'm carrying a firearm.

[SamsDX]

In reading the various articles published of this incident, I also take issue with her rather cavalier attitude towards firearms.

I know we're all guilty of this at times, but guns aren't toys, and I cringe whenever someone calls it that, as she did: "Got to play with my new toy today! Time to clean it!"

Also, I realize it's not one of the cardinal Rules to keep ammunition away from the firearm when you're disassembling/cleaning it, but that's what good practice dictates. I always unload the gun, secure the ammunition, then disassemble, but the pictures she posted up shows that she did not take any such precautions.

As tanks said, she got complacent, and these posts on social media clearly show that.

[tanks]

...
Also we do not know the Mom was negligent, for all we know the gun fell from her holster or it was properly secured in a range bag. Its ASSumptions like this that I find so amusing and frustrating at the same time...

Fact is the child shot the mother with her gun. How the child got to it is irrelevant? It was negligent on the mother's part for not securing the weapon properly. A while ago a three year old riding on a grocery cart reached into her mom's purse, and shot the mom fatally in the head. Again, it was the mom's fault for not securing her weapon.

BTW, have you ever had an AD? I have. Once I was in a practice session working on a speed drill and as I drew the pistol (M&P IIRC) I jerked the trigger a bit early and sent one into the berm.

I don't know whether I'd call those ADss or just misses as you did intended to fire into a specific direction. I have had those during a Bill drill myself where I missed the target completely, not even in the D zone. As I pressed the trigger before the sights came to where I needed to see prior to firing. Solution was to slow down a bit and speed up gradually while still getting "A"s.

Now, if you had shot yourself in the leg then I'd call it an ND as the trigger finger does not belong in the trigger until one is pointing towards the target. There is a difference.

[Kyle1886]

Back when I was growing up guns were not locked away in the dark recesses of a safe. From a VERY early age my three brothers and I were told---touch any of the guns without Dad or Mom supervising---Dad's quote "I'll break your GD arm". (Considering that my folks almost always followed through with the punishment they threatened...made a believer out of us).

When raising our sons early training and "removing" the mystery and curiosity of guns seemed to work for us. (I realize all situations are not the same, but lack of education early can be problematic).

Yes, its becomes another statistic for the control people.

Respectfully
Kyle

[phdo]

This has nothing to do with guns. This is just straight up bad parenting and negligence.

[dwalker]

In reading the various articles published of this incident, I also take issue with her rather cavalier attitude towards firearms.

I know we're all guilty of this at times, but guns aren't toys, and I cringe whenever someone calls it that, as she did: "Got to play with my new toy today! Time to clean it!"

Also, I realize it's not one of the cardinal Rules to keep ammunition away from the firearm when you're disassembling/cleaning it, but that's what good practice dictates. I always unload the gun, secure the ammunition, then disassemble, but the pictures she posted up shows that she did not take any such precautions.

As tanks said, she got complacent, and these posts on social media clearly show that.

I do not know how other folks do it, but my never gets deviated from after the range procedure is this:
unload all the guns, which includes checking chambers, then secure in thier bags/cases/
All ammo goes in the ammo bag, which is not in any way attached to the gun bags. Yeah my gun cases have mag pouches etc, and they just dont get used. I have one bag for rifle/pistol ammo and another for shotgun ammo.

Mags, glasses, earpro, etc. get thrown in the "mag bag". This is something I may change, because the mag bag is a home depot tool bag that happens to have little pouches on the outside that my pistol mags happen to fit nicely into, and is partitioned inside so that my AR mags fit well. However it is completely open and that might need to change to something with a closure.

In CO my guns get put in the bed of the truck, and the ammo bags etc. get put in the back seat of the truck if there is room. When in CA it all goes in the back seat, guns on the seat, ammo and mag bags on the floor.

[dwalker]

Back when I was growing up guns were not locked away in the dark recesses of a safe. From a VERY early age my three brothers and I were told---touch any of the guns without Dad or Mom supervising---Dad's quote "I'll break your GD arm". (Considering that my folks almost always followed through with the punishment they threatened...made a believer out of us).

When raising our sons early training and "removing" the mystery and curiosity of guns seemed to work for us. (I realize all situations are not the same, but lack of education early can be problematic).

Yes, its becomes another statistic for the control people.

Respectfully
Kyle

Yes, I grew up, as I often said, with a loaded 12ga double barrel behind the kitchen door and knowing where every gun Mom and Dad had was. We lived in TN, never even considered a safe for the guns.. they still havent. My brothers and I never even considered touching those guns without permission, because we knew deep down that Momma was not joking about eating dinner standing up for a week. Now my son is taught about the same way, although without the threat of a beating. He 100% knows that if he EVER touches one of Dads guns without DAD present he will lose his .22 rifle I bought for him right after he was born. While he would not take Mom or Grandma or Grandpa so seriously he knows that if Dad says he will take something away, he for sure will do exactly that.
Grandma and Grandpa have tied several times to get him to play with Dads guns when dad is not around and he just wont do it.

[sandiego67]

I wonder what she was thinking the moment that she heard the crack of the gun blast and the searing pressure/heat/puncture of the bullet entering her back through the car seat?

Did she know right away what it was?

[AceGirlsHusband]

I wonder what she was thinking the moment that she heard the crack of the gun blast and the searing pressure/heat/puncture of the bullet entering her back through the car seat?

Did she know right away what it was?

That is truly bizarre '67.

[AreWeFree]

Yes, I grew up, as I often said, with a loaded 12ga double barrel behind the kitchen door and knowing where every gun Mom and Dad had was. We lived in TN, never even considered a safe for the guns.. they still havent. My brothers and I never even considered touching those guns without permission, because we knew deep down that Momma was not joking about eating dinner standing up for a week. Now my son is taught about the same way, although without the threat of a beating. He 100% knows that if he EVER touches one of Dads guns without DAD present he will lose his .22 rifle I bought for him right after he was born. While he would not take Mom or Grandma or Grandpa so seriously he knows that if Dad says he will take something away, he for sure will do exactly that.
Grandma and Grandpa have tied several times to get him to play with Dads guns when dad is not around and he just wont do it.

Your statement is hypocritical to the crap you've posted in this thread and your spelling is atrocious.

[Win231]

Your statement is hypocritical to the crap you've posted in this thread and your spelling is atrocious.

Additionally, seeing such posts helps me understand how gun tragedies happen.

[tanks]

One thing that is overlooked in this thing in regards to making excuses for this woman. The child just as well could have killed himself instead of shooting her.

Would you give her the benefit of the doubt then?

[dwalker]

Your statement is hypocritical to the crap you've posted in this thread and your spelling is atrocious.

so, we wont be friends then? Sigh... Noted.

BTW, I *could* use a spell checker, but I am sorta stuck with my stubborn Tennessee Hilljack ways. You are free to be offended if you wish, won't hurt my feewins atall.