80% Lower Machining

[IPSICK]

Just for clarification, what if it's not a business (association or society) of any type? What if I and some friends want to complete 80s at a private residence, but I'm providing some/all of the tools yet not touching any 80s that are not my own? What do I not see or know yet?

*Btw, I still have not read the ATF doc which I will read immediately.

**ETA: OK, just read ATF doc and it only discusses businesses. Anyone care to expand if this extends to a group of friends at one of their homes with privately owned tools.

[stix213]

The ATF never said you have to own your own tools, but they say machining businesses can't get around needing a license by renting or loaning out their tools. Since this is a machining business, I'd say you shouldn't use their tools.

I've seen nothing from the ATF though that should deter anyone from borrowing a friend's tools, a friend who has them for hobby work and not as part of a business. Perhaps you have a friend who has the tools?

I am not a lawyer.

For what its worth, I did my own 80% lower using a $150 drill press and it turned out fine. You don't need a CNC machine unless you're a perfectionist.

[IPSICK]

The ATF never said you have to own your own tools, but they say machining businesses can't get around needing a license by renting or loaning out their tools. Since this is a machining business, I'd say you shouldn't use their tools.

I've seen nothing from the ATF though that should deter anyone from borrowing a friend's tools, a friend who has them for hobby work and not as part of a business. Perhaps you have a friend who has the tools?

I am not a lawyer.

For what its worth, I did my own 80% lower using a $150 drill press and it turned out fine. You don't need a CNC machine unless you're a perfectionist.

So my house (private residence), my tools (no relation to a business of any type)...my friends can finish their 80s? No one else it touching/finishing anyones 80s but their own.

[stix213]

So my house (private residence), my tools (no relation to a business of any type)...my friends can finish their 80s? No one else it touching/finishing anyones 80s but their own.

Strongpoint quoted the important part of the ATF opinion. I don't see anything there about friends not allowed to borrow hobby tools from their friends. It is all about businesses who have those tools for their business.

Don't own those tools for a business, don't use those tools to operate a business, don't sell time on those tools, don't create a tool borrowing organization, don't do anything that would make it look like you're operating a business and it looks fine to me. I'd have no problem loaning a friend my drill press or if I owned better tools to finish a lower, assuming I don't ever use those tools for business purposes (which I don't), and I don't charge any money or do any of the work.

Again I am not a lawyer.

[IPSICK]

Well thank you for the offered clarification. At least I can rely on some of the more senior members here for some rationale discussion.

Just for some added context to my questioning, I am thinking of throwing an 80s completion party for my birthday but I want to try and foresee the risks and pitfalls involved. A thread I started in another forum on CG was met with calling me out as a troll.

[stix213]

Well thank you for the offered clarification. At least I can rely on some of the more senior members here for some rationale discussion.

Just for some added context to my questioning, I am thinking of throwing an 80s completion party for my birthday but I want to try and foresee the risks and pitfalls involved. A thread I started in another forum on CG was met with calling me out as a troll.

Organizing an event for completing lowers isn't the same thing as loaning some tools to a friend for them on their own to complete their own lower. I'd avoid any organized events of any kind.

[DDM4556]

Please delete this silly thread.

Delete, delete, delete, blah blah blah...

So annoying... Answer the question or STFU and click back. It may be a dumb question, but he's got the right to ask. God knows I've asked plenty...

Welcome to Calguns OP. Lots of cool people here but some angry old farts too.

Whatever you do, do it at home as everyone above is suggesting.

[IPSICK]

Organizing an event for completing lowers isn't the same thing as loaning some tools to a friend for them on their own to complete their own lower. I'd avoid any organized events of any kind.

I get what you're saying. Just seems weird that this is a birthday party for me where lowers are completed by my friends for their own purposes. Yes, my perspective on it is a useless distinction in that how you see it is how BATFE/prosecution would probably see it.

[strongpoint]

Just for clarification, what if it's not a business (association or society) of any type? What if I and some friends want to complete 80s at a private residence, but I'm providing some/all of the tools yet not touching any 80s that are not my own? What do I not see or know yet?

*Btw, I still have not read the ATF doc which I will read immediately.

**ETA: OK, just read ATF doc and it only discusses businesses. Anyone care to expand if this extends to a group of friends at one of their homes with privately owned tools.

The ATF never said you have to own your own tools, but they say machining businesses can't get around needing a license by renting or loaning out their tools. Since this is a machining business, I'd say you shouldn't use their tools.

I've seen nothing from the ATF though that should deter anyone from borrowing a friend's tools, a friend who has them for hobby work and not as part of a business. Perhaps you have a friend who has the tools?

So my house (private residence), my tools (no relation to a business of any type)...my friends can finish their 80s? No one else it touching/finishing anyones 80s but their own.

Strongpoint quoted the important part of the ATF opinion. I don't see anything there about friends not allowed to borrow hobby tools from their friends. It is all about businesses who have those tools for their business.

Don't own those tools for a business, don't use those tools to operate a business, don't sell time on those tools, don't create a tool borrowing organization, don't do anything that would make it look like you're operating a business and it looks fine to me. I'd have no problem loaning a friend my drill press or if I owned better tools to finish a lower, assuming I don't ever use those tools for business purposes (which I don't), and I don't charge any money or do any of the work.

I think you two are using too limited a definition of "association or society" or assuming that it means the same thing as "business." From Webster's New World College Dictionary (5th):

association
3. an organization of persons having common interests, purposes, etc.; society; league

society
5. one's friends or associates
6. any organized group of people joined together because of work, interests, etc. in common: a medical society

I read the phrase "business (including an association or society)" to mean "We (BAFTE) intend for this ruling to cover groups of individuals, not just commercial businesses."

[IPSICK]

No disagreement here strongpoint, hence for me.

I know a lot of fringe 2nd Am supporters. Was hoping to get them over to the dark side with their own lowers.

[Sunday]

You are doing all the work yourself .

[cannon]

Err on the side of caution and do it at home with less impressive tools.

Enjoy the challenge.