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The truth about handgun knockdown power

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  • #16
    NeoWeird
    Veteran Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 3342

    Originally posted by Splinter
    "The report cites previous studies that have calculated bullet velocities and impact power, concluding that the “stopping power” of a 9mm bullet at muzzle velocity is equal to a one-pound weight being dropped from the height of six feet. A .45 ACP (45 auto) bullet impact would equal that same object dropped from 11.4 feet. "

    I dont understand the point they are making here? If you drop a 1lb weight 6 feet onto a person wearing a vest, will it break ribs like a 9mm can? Or are they using it as a force over the total surface of impact, in an effort to dispel Hollywood myths? Thats like saying getting your hand stepped on by a slipper has the same stopping force as a stiletto?
    I think what they are trying to do is correlate something we are more familiar with to demonstrate the energy in the bullet. Most people don't understand bullet ballistics so if you tell them a .44 magnum will send you sailing if you get shot with it; they can believe it. You tell them it has the same energy as lobbing a 3 pound fish over the counter to someone in the kitchen and all of a sudden they start to realize how foolish it was to think that little bullet could throw someone back. They weren't trying to say that it would do the same damage, but that it has the same energy.

    A pound of feathers traveling at 100 mph may cut you up, but won't do much else. A half pound of steel at 50 mph could seriously **** you up. Damage and eregy are two seperate issues and they are just correlating the energy into objects and velocities we are more familiar and comfortable with.

    Originally posted by Kokopelli
    I recently read Teddy Roosevelt's writings about the Spanish American War. He described the men that were shot in the charge, saying that they just crumpled. Anyone who has seen some actual footage of the D-Day invasions has seen this for themselves.

    The bottom line of the LBPD article is, "The first well placed shot wins."

    Gary
    Not to mention that the article addresses an instance where the attacker was on PCP. That's not exactly a controlled encounter that can be looked to as hard evidence to the nature of the way the human body responds to gunshot wounds. Besides, a severed lower spine will force someone to lose control and drop to the floor; it may not stop them entirely but it will drop them and I think the writer of that article knows that.

    I think what he is trying to say is that you can NOT rely on anything to stop a conflict outside of absolute destruction of the nervous system, which can be done with anything, even a little 22. Then again I've talked with people who were morticians and EMT personel who would see time and time again that a .45 would cause much more fatal tissue damage than a 9mm. I've heard of people getting shot through the heart with some calibers and surviving. I've heard of people being shot in the brain and surviving, even being concious enough to take themselves to the hospital afterwards (not realizing the severity of their wound).

    This article is just further demonstration that there is NO fight stopper. Period. Doesn't matter if it's a 22 or a .50 BMG. Doesn't matter if it's one or a hundred. Doesn't matter where, how big, or how fast. NOTHING will stop a fight flat out every time.

    So what can we do?

    We can study the human body and understand where it's most vulnerable. We can maximize our potential by careful selection and aiming of these points. We can pick a caliber that is adequate enough to penetrate to these weak and/or vulnerable points and still maintain enough energy to do significant damage. And most importantly, we can train and train some more until it becomes second nature and we fall back on it even when adrenaline, panic, terror, etc takes over.

    These will NOT stop the fight; these just increase our chances of stopping the fight and that is ALL we can do.

    ETA: And caliber IS important. Even a .22 can penetrate to the centeral nervous system and kill someone. Knowing that, then a .22 semi-auto with it's low recoil and small size would be the perfect carry gun. Then again, someone wearing a couple thick layers of winter clothing could become inviniclble at that point. You might have someone who is VERY fat where the bullet would stop before reaching vital organs. You might have someone in a car trying to shoot you. If everyone was the same size, we walked around naked, and crimes happened in the same place and the same manner then caliber wouldn't be that big of an issue. The problem is there are billions upon billions of variables were a larger caliber can perform where a smaller one can not.

    The best caliber is the most powerful caliber that you are comfortable and efficient with.
    Last edited by NeoWeird; 11-22-2008, 6:27 PM.
    quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. - Lucius Annaeus
    a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand.

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    • #17
      Vinz
      Veteran Member
      • Aug 2008
      • 2874

      Originally posted by NeoWeird
      I
      The best caliber is the most powerful caliber that you are comfortable and efficient with.
      ...and afford. Beautifully put. I like a bullet that is going to sprawl.


      Vinz
      Armis Exposcere Pacem
      VM-1 AMBI SLING PLATES stamped US made
      VM-1S Strap version ambi sling plate

      In Memory Of Babe....I also remember the Eggs and Country fried potatoes that went with that Bacon.

      Originally posted by Fot
      In before the penis measurements
      ROFL

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      • #18
        hawk84
        Member
        • Sep 2007
        • 261

        simply put, every time you fire a bullet if it doesn't knock you down, it won't knock them down the force is the same

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        • #19
          dw33b
          Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 428

          Originally posted by hawk84
          simply put, every time you fire a bullet if it doesn't knock you down, it won't knock them down the force is the same
          Newton's Third Law always wins.
          And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
          -Acts 2:44-45
          And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
          -Matthew 19:24

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          • #20
            BigKevLA
            Member
            • Apr 2008
            • 297

            I'll still take a .45 over a 9mm.
            NRA Instructor-Pistol

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            • #21
              HCz
              Veteran Member
              • Jun 2008
              • 3295




              Seriously, this is a good article that reminds us what is the most important. The discussion about bullets and how they are is good, but when the moment comes, it's the user, not just the equipment.

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              • #22
                Warhawk014
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2008
                • 1498

                train like you are fighting. because you will fight how you train.
                http://www.shop42a.com/

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                • #23
                  Splinter
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2007
                  • 513

                  Originally posted by hawk84
                  simply put, every time you fire a bullet if it doesn't knock you down, it won't knock them down the force is the same
                  The force is similar, not the same. So far as to being able to fire/propel with something that will knock someone down without knocking the projector/shooter down. Its seems as simple as force equals force. Except the shooter is losing energy through heat, the mass of the gun, and a larger surface area taking place over a greater amount of time. Also, the shooter is actively countering the force. Shoot a heavy caliber and the gun recoils, moves the shooter. Take that same energy and expend it in less time and blamo, knock down. Well almost, except the energy usually is disipated in tissue. With a vest on the target you very well could cause a knockdown. Similar to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_kv4p65q3s
                  The formula you need is force = mass x (velocity / time)
                  There are different velocities and times. The bullet accelerates down the barrel. Its accelleration upon impact is much quicker. Think of it as trying to catch the same round back in the gun that fired it.
                  PS: gotta love my drinking and typing and trying to remember college physics.

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                  • #24
                    sb_pete
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 1039

                    Originally posted by Splinter
                    Thats like saying getting your hand stepped on by a slipper has the same stopping force as a stiletto?
                    Actually, it does. That is kind of the point. A stiletto does NOT stop you at all, it punctures right into you.

                    Of course, the problem with your analogy is one pictures the slipper bending and giving (smooshing) while the stiletto (with proper follow through anyways) goes until bone, hilt, or user stops it.

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                    • #25
                      sb_pete
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2008
                      • 1039

                      Originally posted by NeoWeird
                      The best caliber is the most powerful caliber that you are comfortable and efficient with.
                      +1, hence the Mozambique drill - two to pause em long enough to place the shot that puts em out.

                      Seriously though, interesting article. Thanks for sharing to the OP. And thanks to Neo too, it is always interesting to read your contributions on these matters.

                      -Pete

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                      • #26
                        ysr_racer
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2006
                        • 12014

                        I had an instructor that used to say, "Keep pulling the trigger until you hear click, click, click."

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                        • #27
                          lioneaglegriffin
                          Veteran Member
                          • Apr 2008
                          • 3897

                          Originally posted by HCz



                          Seriously, this is a good article that reminds us what is the most important. The discussion about bullets and how they are is good, but when the moment comes, it's the user, not just the equipment.
                          lol i never seen a mushroom cloud like that in a gel test. im sold on 10mm now
                          "Si vis pacem, para bellum" ("If you want peace, prepare for war") Flavius V. Renatus
                          "There are five boxes to use in the defense of Liberty: The Soap Box, the Mail Box, the Ballot Box, the Jury Box, and the Ammunition Box. Please use them in that order."

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                          • #28
                            M. Sage
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                            • Jul 2006
                            • 19759

                            Originally posted by Splinter
                            The force is similar, not the same. So far as to being able to fire/propel with something that will knock someone down without knocking the projector/shooter down. Its seems as simple as force equals force. Except the shooter is losing energy through heat, the mass of the gun, and a larger surface area taking place over a greater amount of time. Also, the shooter is actively countering the force.
                            The energy lost to heat doesn't reappear downrange. That energy is gone, gone, gone.

                            As far as a handgun, do you suppose the sender who is generally using a 4" barrel to accelerate the bullet vs the receiver who is generally using 10" of meat and bone to (usually) only partially decelerate it is going to get more energy transfer?

                            The weight of the gun? How about the simple weight difference between two people, like in a lighter person shooting a heavier one? Weight of the gun matters in how much pain the shooter perceives. A gun's weight reduces felt recoil by decelerating the gun, the same amount of recoil force is still there, or very close to it.

                            Originally posted by Splinter
                            Shoot a heavy caliber and the gun recoils, moves the shooter. Take that same energy and expend it in less time and blamo, knock down. Well almost, except the energy usually is disipated in tissue. With a vest on the target you very well could cause a knockdown. Similar to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_kv4p65q3s
                            The formula you need is force = mass x (velocity / time)
                            There are different velocities and times. The bullet accelerates down the barrel. Its accelleration upon impact is much quicker. Think of it as trying to catch the same round back in the gun that fired it.
                            PS: gotta love my drinking and typing and trying to remember college physics.
                            Did you not see the Mythbusters where they shot "Buster" with a .50 BMG rifle at 22 feet? The bullet went through two 1/4" steel plates and lodged in Buster's armature; nearly total energy transfer. It only knocked the dummy back about three inches off a rig that one of the crew knocked it off with a thrown baseball.

                            A hit with a bullet might knock a person off balance, but the energy transferred is probably not going to knock them down The shock of being shot might, though.
                            Originally posted by Deadbolt
                            "We're here to take your land for your safety"

                            "My Safety?" *click* "There, that was my safety"
                            sigpicNRA Member

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                            • #29
                              CSACANNONEER
                              CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
                              CGN Contributor - Lifetime
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 44093

                              Why does law enforcement still insist on using handguns as their primary weapon?

                              Handguns should only be used to fight your way back to your battle rifle which, you never should have left in the first place!

                              Yea, handguns are more convienent but.........
                              NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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                              • #30
                                tyrist
                                Veteran Member
                                • Jun 2007
                                • 4564

                                Originally posted by CSACANNONEER
                                Why does law enforcement still insist on using handguns as their primary weapon?

                                Handguns should only be used to fight your way back to your battle rifle which, you never should have left in the first place!

                                Yea, handguns are more convienent but.........
                                Hard to conduct crimminal investigations...as well as run, jump, wrestle, and handcuff people when you are holding a rifle.

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