Service Rifle vs. Match Rifle Vs ?????

[bombadillo]

Well I've just started today my first High power competition, and I had some questions for you old salty dogs. I've done a lot of pistol, a lot of bench, and some mid to long range shooting prone and various positions. I REALLY like shooting high power because it works on marksmanship in 3 position, somewhat takes the gear alone out of the equation (although quality gear goes a long ways) and puts people on a level playing field to sit down and shoot well or shoot crappy.

I am looking to set up a new rifle, and I would like some guidance toward what route you think I should do first. National Match service rifle seems to be the natural route to go because they come with sights, are easy to acquire, and simple in nature. The one I WANT to get is the match rifle with peep sights, 26-30" barrel, and side charging. I always want to get all geeked out on things like this but I have a feeling I will be dropping 1500+ into a match upper versus $750 with a NM upper.

What are your thoughts on this?

Calling OCABJ

[Merc1138]

Is that $1500+ you mention including the sights? Because the uppers themselves(you can of course pay more for a higher end barrel) don't run $1500. A basic WOA upper is going to run you about $800 including the side charging handle https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/home.php?cat=259 while a WOP upper is going to be closer to $1100 http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-match.htm

If I recall correctly, the WOA uppers are using wilson blanks, and the WOP uppers use krieger.

The Compass Lake uppers are going to be priced kinda close to that http://www.compasslake.com/index.php...roducts_id=108

That's still under $1500, leaving you money for sights.

[bombadillo]

I will say I have the lower, trigger, and all the other goods necessary to run a nice rifle, but the WOA being about 675, what should I be expecting to be droppping on good sights? Where do I find these sights because I have a hard time telling the difference between a cheap 100 dollar set and a 500 dollar set of Anschutz. They all look the same to me because I don't yet know how they really work. I know after time, I'll be able to look at something and see a difference, but I'm relying on others knowledge at this point to point me in the right direction.

[Merc1138]

$500 set? lol. The anschutz sets are still going to need risers/mounts for an AR.

Higher end you're looking at $400-600 just for the rear and that doesn't even include the aperture(you can get a basic $20 peep, or go crazy with color filters, polarization, etc. for like $150+). For the front you can get replaceable inserts, or fully adjustable irises as well.

Also that $675 WOA upper doesn't include the side charging handle, that's another $125 if I remember right.

I honestly couldn't tell you if there's even a worthwhile "starter" set and which mounts to use for an AR, since I kinda went balls to the wall with mine(there are other people who could probably point you to something to start with, and hopefully they respond). But either way I suggest trying to meet up with someone who actually has such a setup(not necessarily even on an AR) just so you can give it a shot, since some people hate the sight picture.

[bombadillo]

I've shot with them before on 2 different space guns and an Anschutz smallbore rifle as well, but I just don't know what equates to a Ferrari and what is the Mustang. I am looking the best bang for the buck as I enter the game for the first time.

[OpenSightsOnly]

Do you have a lower with a geissele hi speed national match trigger? If so, you are in good shape.

If you want to go for a space gun set-up, the sights are as much as the upper itself. Phoenix, Centra, Warner, Riles are the typical brands.

BTW, how are your eyes? If you haven't had an eye exam, get it done and your shooting script should be based on the rifle's sight radius.

[Merc1138]

I've shot with them before on 2 different space guns and an Anschutz smallbore rifle as well, but I just don't know what equates to a Ferrari and what is the Mustang. I am looking the best bang for the buck as I enter the game for the first time.

Ahh, ok. Cool. I just wanted to make sure you didn't plan on spending a few hundred on sights without knowing what you're getting into.

I'm not sure anschutz even makes a set that would work on an AR, as I recall they only make 'em for the 11mm dovetail bases.

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=10004M

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Phoenix_Precision_Top_Mount_Sight.html

A basic anschutz 9775 or gehmann 510 rear iris should be plenty(unless you really want all of the extra color filter, diopter, polarization, etc) options, but you're going to be at almost $500 just for the rear.

The front is probably going to be another $200 or so, and you're looking at another $90-$120 for the front iris(some people like the bar, some don't).

Like OpenSightsOnly said, the sights are going to run you as much as the upper and there's no real way around that(unless you manage to find someone selling used sights, which isn't gonna happen on calguns).

[ocabj]

While I haven't shot XTC since 2010, and I'm not sure if I'll make it back to the game, but here's my thoughts on service vs match.

I shot only SR in competitions. In 2009/2010, I built a match rifle on a Rem 700 in an Eliseo R5 chassis. I tried playing around with it in practice sessions, but never got comfortable with it in all positions. I ended up continuing on with SR before I took a hiatus from XTC, and never got into match rifle for actual competitions.

I think if I were to revisit it, I could figure it out. But my feelings on SR is that even with the shorter sight radius and less wind resistant caliber / cartridge vs match rifles, I just found service rifle simpler. While match rifle is great for fitting the rifle to the body, all the adjustments just overwhelmed me. Shooting service rifle is just easier for me because I just made my body fit the gun.

Then there's the cost. I bought my first WOA CMP upper in 2005/06 for $750 with the pinned rear. Now it's $800 with the pinned rear. That's still great value for a complete NM SR legal upper. Add your basic lower, A2 stock, and a Geissele Hi-Speed NM SR trigger, and you're probably only in for about $1300.

If you were going to go with an AR in Match Rifle, it's going to be about the same price, until you add sights. A front and rear combo is going to run you about $1000, give or take. If you don't mind spending the extra $1K on sights, then the AR in match rifle is going to work great for you. I would personally go with 6mmAR or 6mm HAGAR, though, if you end up doing this. If you go into the match rifle category for the extra benefits of the longer sight radius, you'll want to also take advantage of not having to run .223. People shooting MR will be running a 6mm or better caliber, and (given equal skill) they will have an edge on you on the 600 if you're still running .223.

But ultimately, after having typed all the above, I'm going to recommend you go with service rifle. Service rifle is 'simpler' and will be a lot faster to pickup and improve upon. No need to worry about how you adjust the stock butt plate, camber, cheek height for all three positions. No need to worry about running your front sight down, while running your front sight up (or down) as you move from 200 to 300, 300 to 600.

Once you excel at the service rifle (High Master), then you can jump into Match Rifle.

[bombadillo]

Do you have a lower with a geissele hi speed national match trigger? If so, you are in good shape.

If you want to go for a space gun set-up, the sights are as much as the upper itself. Phoenix, Centra, Warner, Riles are the typical brands.

BTW, how are your eyes? If you haven't had an eye exam, get it done and your shooting script should be based on the rifle's sight radius.

Eyes are great, (I'm an optician so I get them checked regularly) and that is too bad about the prices, but at least I know what to expect.

I may just keep the lower I have now, throw an AR Gold trigger in it, and get a WOA Service upper and call it good for awhile. I have a single stage 4lb trigger in one lower, and a tuned 5lb single stage mil-spec currently in another lower. I've sold off most of what I had in AR-15's when people were just about knocking my door down trying to get parts and money was flowing I don't know if I want a couple grand in an upper that only serves one role without optics. I want to see how much I get to shoot the game, and really, only one guy has a match rifle up in my area to shoot against anyway. It would be much more competitive to shoot a SR type upper.

Thanks guys for the heads up, and now it's time to have a Calguns yardsale to pay for a new upper when I decide which route to take.

[bombadillo]

On a positive note, I got more X rings than anyone else in the competition, but during the competition, I started off with a 16" heavy barreled carbine, and switched to a dedicated SR because all I had on the prior rifle was a KAC Micro 200-600m sight and it wasn't sighted.



After I swapped rifles, I had fantastic groupings, but had to walk the groups closer and closer to the x-ring making my score lower, but when I got it dialed in I was shooting as well as the winner of the competition. Also in the middle of switching rifles, after 2 rounds someone offered me a web sling which SIGNIFICANTLY helped my group consistency. I think with my own dedicated equipment, as well as a couple of extras I could do well with this game.

[highpower790]

Come out to the service rifle championship at Coalinga the 1st weekend of April or wait until the highpower championship the 1st weekend of May.Sure would be nice to see more interest.
16 shooters attended the club match today and high score was posted with a service rifle.

[russ69]

Ocabj summed it up nicely. I also recommend you shoot service rifle until you think the rifle is holding you back. Also don't scrimp on your service rifle get the best you can afford, it will save you money in the long run and of course you will be handloading and making the best ammo you can. At the minimum do that for a couple of years before you re-think building a match rifle.

[Ahhnother8]

Go to the link below and look in the National Match forum. Most everything related to XTC shooting has been discussed. There are often rifles and other equipment available there too. Many of the posters are top level competitors, so their insights are valuable. One may have to join there to visit the site.

http://www.usrifleteams.com