Our own Li Wenliang moment when they fired Capt. Brett E. Crozier

[OCEquestrian]

Yes!!! Thank you for that. I could not for the life of me remember what that was called.

It pretty much explains all of the newfound virologists that we encounter both on this board as well as in the media!! Lol

I suspect the OP has an anti Trump agenda he always seems to be pressing here on CalGuns.

Im sure he would have preferred a democratic president in office now who would have closed all gun stores nationwide as "not essential"...

They will try to beat up Trump and his administration over US Navy internal decision.

Former SWO here.

[FireCloud9]

OP, not your fault.

Military service to the nation is a completely different culture. Even if your close relatives served ie. father, mother, brother, sister - it's not the same. Have to be in the culture to experience and understand it. That being said, there are nuances.

As an analogy, it's the difference between reading a book on learning how to swimming and swimming for the first time - or - reading about sex or birth and doing either for the first time.

So lets walk through some comments.

I would like to believe lives of our service members are more important.

Ah, no. Mission (in service to the nation) is more important.

Military personnel undertake missions that costs or puts their lives in jeopardy all the time.

Alerting people higher up, including his direct superior who was on the same ship, is not a fireable offense.

As the skipper he could/should have stood up for what he thought was right with his commander in private, but once he is told the decision is made then it's over unless it's an illegal order.

For all we know, he may have approached his commander in private prior to the email and they may have verbally disagreed on the response.

It is not unusual for a higher up to claim publicly or to their higher ups, that they were unaware of a situation once it comes out - specially if that communications was verbal.

During my military service, I faced such situations more than once from unscrupulous higher ranking military personnel.

The whole point of a chain of command is, you go to your superior. Period. You dont leapfrog to get the result you think is correct.

1.

2. Unless you are given orders that violate the laws of war, you obey them.

3. I will give him credit, he probably knew this would end his career. He did it any way.

1. While #1 is technically true, one could make it their call (with consequences).

2. It does not require "laws of war" - just that the orders be illegal.

(For OP) Military members are obligated to obey "lawful" orders and disobey illegal ones.

3. Yes, he knew quite well there would be career ending consequences or worse. Sometimes you have to jump on a grenade to save your men.

You see OP, having served, I have first hand knowledge of such situations as I was simultaneously given an Article 15 AND Promoted for the same incident.

And it would not be my first or last time that during my years of service I would have to circumvent the chain of command.

During my service, there were 3 events where I either did not follow a direct order by an officer or higher ranked non-commissioned officer; or circumvented military procedure in order to obtain a goal.

For one of those events, MP came and arrested me. Subsequently, all charges were dismissed. No loss of rank or punishment (Article 15, etc.)

For another, I was threatened with punishment by my CPT and 1LT. Instead, I received an award for the incident.

The third incident, as I mentioned above, ended up involving JAG - Court Martial - ultimately the ruling resulted in an Article 15 and 14 days of extra duty for disobeying a direct order.

However, I was promotion eligible at that time and in the same ruling, it was recommended that based on my actions I be promoted prior serving those 14 days (it made a difference in the type of extra duty).

So as you can see, it's not as black and white as its made out to be. Though one does have to think critically and analytically.

It's not just in times of war that one has to jump on a "grenade" for the soldiers under their command.

[JCHavasu]

Military service to the nation is a completely different culture. Even if your close relatives served ie. father, mother, brother, sister - it's not the same. Have to be in the culture to experience and understand it. That being said, there are nuances.

Well said.

For all we know, he may have approached his commander in private prior to the email and they may have verbally disagreed on the response.

Very true. The fact is we will likely never know exactly what happened. The people who are all pissed off because of "feelings" and believing what the media is putting out need to realize we don't have all the information, nor should we.

It's not just in times of war that one has to jump on a "grenade" for the soldiers under their command.

This. Sometimes a good leader will need to violate the rules to protect their people. But they should do it fully understanding that they are taking responsibility for the result. I respect Captain Crozier for doing what he thought needed to be done, but that doesn't mean what he did was the right or correct thing to do.

[tamalpias]

You think you keep on an commander who sounds the alarm to his superior and CC:s the San Francisco Chronicle? The Roosevelt is 10% of our carrier fleet (the Reagan is currently in dock undergoing maintenance), and he has broadcast to the entire world that it is not combat effective, and will not be for weeks or months.

I respect a commander who looks out for his troops, but not by putting the nation at greater risk.

https://theweichertreport.com/2020/0...brett-crozier/

I am 100% positive a career captn. knows about chain of command more than any of us keyboard warriors here. I am also pretty sure he did go to his immediate superior to get authorization but was probably rebuffed hence he took the route he did.

What I want to ask you is where is your proof he leaked it to the newspaper?

If any of you were a sailor on that ship, or was one of those infected would you had wanted your CO to do what he did and that was get you a faster response to get help? I know I am siding with the capt. on this one. It is about saving people's lives not some power trip about a war we are not in and somebody got but hurt because he was not asked permission.

[tamalpias]

OP, not your fault.

Military service to the nation is a completely different culture. Even if your close relatives served ie. father, mother, brother, sister - it's not the same. Have to be in the culture to experience and understand it. That being said, there are nuances.

As an analogy, it's the difference between reading a book on learning how to swimming and swimming for the first time - or - reading about sex or birth and doing either for the first time.

So lets walk through some comments.



Ah, no. Mission (in service to the nation) is more important.

Military personnel undertake missions that costs or puts their lives in jeopardy all the time.



For all we know, he may have approached his commander in private prior to the email and they may have verbally disagreed on the response.

It is not unusual for a higher up to claim publicly or to their higher ups, that they were unaware of a situation once it comes out - specially if that communications was verbal.

During my military service, I faced such situations more than once from unscrupulous higher ranking military personnel.



1. While #1 is technically true, one could make it their call (with consequences).

2. It does not require "laws of war" - just that the orders be illegal.

(For OP) Military members are obligated to obey "lawful" orders and disobey illegal ones.

3. Yes, he knew quite well there would be career ending consequences or worse. Sometimes you have to jump on a grenade to save your men.

You see OP, having served, I have first hand knowledge of such situations as I was simultaneously given an Article 15 AND Promoted for the same incident.

And it would not be my first or last time that during my years of service I would have to circumvent the chain of command.

During my service, there were 3 events where I either did not follow a direct order by an officer or higher ranked non-commissioned officer; or circumvented military procedure in order to obtain a goal.

For one of those events, MP came and arrested me. Subsequently, all charges were dismissed. No loss of rank or punishment (Article 15, etc.)

For another, I was threatened with punishment by my CPT and 1LT. Instead, I received an award for the incident.

The third incident, as I mentioned above, ended up involving JAG - Court Martial - ultimately the ruling resulted in an Article 15 and 14 days of extra duty for disobeying a direct order.

However, I was promotion eligible at that time and in the same ruling, it was recommended that based on my actions I be promoted prior serving those 14 days (it made a difference in the type of extra duty).

So as you can see, it's not as black and white as its made out to be. Though one does have to think critically and analytically.

It's not just in times of war that one has to jump on a "grenade" for the soldiers under their command.

thank you for your service and insight. I don't fault this captn for doing what he did and I am sure what you said probably did happen because it has happened to you. But for everybody who was citing chain of command they were not there and can't say because he didn't follow his commander it was his fault. I hope an investigation is done and a compassionate man will retain his job for all the years of service he has performed.

[tamalpias]

I suspect the OP has an anti Trump agenda he always seems to be pressing here on CalGuns.

Im sure he would have preferred a democratic president in office now who would have closed all gun stores nationwide as "not essential"...

They will try to beat up Trump and his administration over US Navy internal decision.

Former SWO here.

don't assume anything about me. you don't know me.

[Citadelgrad87]

I am 100% positive a career captn. knows about chain of command more than any of us keyboard warriors here. I am also pretty sure he did go to his immediate superior to get authorization but was probably rebuffed hence he took the route he did.

What I want to ask you is where is your proof he leaked it to the newspaper?

If any of you were a sailor on that ship, or was one of those infected would you had wanted your CO to do what he did and that was get you a faster response to get help? I know I am siding with the capt. on this one. It is about saving people's lives not some power trip about a war we are not in and somebody got but hurt because he was not asked permission.

[Offspring]

I may be the odd man out here.
I read the SecNav's original statement as "he is either an idiot or he knew what he was doing". Then what appears to be an apology to me is not an apology but a statement: "To anyone who misunderstood and thinks I think he is an idiot, that is not the case. This man is very intelligent and competent and knew exactly what he was doing when firing that off".
Feel free to discuss.

On another note re: the original statement to the sailors.
I have managed men. Real men need to be reminded, sometimes quickly and surely of the order and expectations. I saw his original statement to them as that. Because they are good American fighting men and women, I have no doubt the good ones listened and realized, "well ok, let's get back to work".

[u04601]

we are not at war......

We have many assets that are DETERRENTS so that we do not have to go to war.
We keep shipping channels open with our presence, or threat of presence, so that wars are avoided.
When deployed, we are ready as though war could be declared with every radio reception, and stand ready to act.
This CO made the wrong decisions and brought the wrong attention to his worries.

Now, turn to.

[RickD427]

captain was wrong.

what he did was like telling the enemy you are out of ammo.
stupid.

What Cozier did was dangerous and craven.

What Modly said to the crew was unprofessional and asinine.

One endangered operational security the other created hurt feelings.

[OCEquestrian]

[Den60]

we are not at war, we all know to chastise those who are on cruise ships after the pandemic was declared and is not safe to be on a ship. these are our sailors who are in harms way. Don't you think those sailors on his ship haven't already alerted their family members or the media? The Captain I am sure is more aware of the harm that his subordinates are in than either you or I and also the acting SECnav.

The Navy has zero tolerance for lapses of judgement in their ship commanders, much less the Captain of one of its carriers.

[repomanNWP]

I support Crozier being relieved based on going outside the chain of command, but acting Secretary Modly appears to be a real bozo.

... and with that Modly is gone, resigned.

[OCEquestrian]

... and with that Modly is gone, resigned.

I am sorry to hear it but I am not surprised. Another tenant of military leadership that goes hand in hand with maintaining the chain of command is another old military lesson that served me well as a young US Navy Ensign..."praise in public, reprimand in private".

[jarhead714]

... and with that Modly is gone, resigned.

Unlike the Captain, HE did the right thing in the end. He had to go after backtracking.