Bullet-button for a collpasing stock?

[CandG]

I've looked everywhere, and cannot find an answer to my question, so here goes:

Everyone knows what a bullet-button is for: It turns an otherwise "removeable magazine" into a "fixed" magazine, by requiring a tool to remove the magazine from the gun.

So my question is, could the same theory apply to a collapsible stock? For example, could someone use a "collapsible" stock with a pistol grip on a semi-auto shotgun in CA, simply by using some sort of "bullet button" device for the stock? (making it legally a "fixed stock", since it requires the use of a tool to collapse it?)

[Steve_In_29]

I believe as far as stocks go, there is no wiggle room. "Fixed" means fixed, because even if it needs a tool to do so an adjustable stock is a no-no.

[tacticalcity]

The reason a bullet button makes a rifle SB23 compliant is that SB23 contained a definition of a fixed magazine that says it is still fixed even if it can be removed with a tool. It then goes on to say that a bullet is considered a tool for that purpose. No such definition exists in the law for a fixed stock.

That said, I would say that depending on the design of the thing you might be able to make a case for it being legal. But not because of anything specifically spelled out in the law. So it would not be as strong of a case as the magazine bullet button. It would be an uphill battle to be sure. But most of the existing methods of turning an adjustable stock into a fixed one can be removed with a tool. But usually the process of doing so would damage it so it could not be turned back into a fixed stock so they know you have not been switching back and forth at will. I'm thinking of the pining and welding, soldering, blocking off all but one hole of a slip-on stock with plastic, or gluing a stock with adhesive type methods. But some people "pin" the stock with a bolt that can be removed with a screw driver. You might be able to argue your method is no different than the later. But bear in mind, the DOJ never specifically approved any of these methods. They don't do that. We only know that the DOJ considers them legal because they have not arrested anybody for doing it...yet! So as far as I know there is no case law regarding how to legally turn an adjustable stock into a fixed one and it is not covered by the PC. I don't know about you, but I am not exactly in a hurry to be the first test case.

My short answer is maybe, but it would be a tough sell.

[Mitch]

Fix the stock. There is no bullet button for stocks.

[furyous68]

I know some guys have had to pin their adjustable stocks on a rifle if the OAL is less than 30" when the stock is in it's shortest configuration. In that way, it's considered a fixed stock. OAL must be measured with the adjustable stock in it's shortest configuration in which the rifle can still be fired.

Just use a set screw to fix it.

[CandG]

Great advice guys. It's definitely interesting trying to figure out where the law draws the line. From what I'm hearing, the consensus is that fixing the stock with a set screw using an allen key is fine, but using a button that has to be pushed by an allen key isn't? Basically, as long as you have to TURN the tool counterclockwise to collapse the stock, it's considered fixed. Maybe I should write a letter to DOJ asking for clarification?

[Merc1138]

Great advice guys. It's definitely interesting trying to figure out where the law draws the line. From what I'm hearing, the consensus is that fixing the stock with a set screw using an allen key is fine, but using a button that has to be pushed by an allen key isn't? Basically, as long as you have to TURN the tool counterclockwise to collapse the stock, it's considered fixed. Maybe I should write a letter to DOJ asking for clarification?

The CA DOJ does not exist to answer questions to help citizens avoid breaking laws. I'm not joking. Their standard excuse is "it's up to the 58 local DA's to determine whether or not to prosecute", but if they feel like you're breaking the law, they'll happily raid your home.

The laws discussing fixed stocks are simply not worded like those for a fixed magazine. Fix the stock in place so it's non-adjustable, unless you take something apart to adjust it, and then fix it back into place.

edit: I can even guess what you might be thinking. "But they have to help", no they don't. "But then how does anyone make sure they aren't breaking a law?" contact a lawyer, and possibly have the lawyer contact the CA DOJ. If it were that easy to get clarification about crap in this state, we'd already have an answer for you as well as a letter from the DOJ to refer to as a response.

[CandG]

The CA DOJ does not exist to answer questions to help citizens avoid breaking laws. I'm not joking. Their standard excuse is "it's up to the 58 local DA's to determine whether or not to prosecute", but if they feel like you're breaking the law, they'll happily raid your home.

The laws discussing fixed stocks are simply not worded like those for a fixed magazine. Fix the stock in place so it's non-adjustable, unless you take something apart to adjust it, and then fix it back into place.

Makes sense. Jeeze, if they're going to create laws, they should at least answer questions people have about them. I know I know, that's a complaint for a whole different forum.

Specifically, I want to use a factory collapsible stock on a benelli m4, which I know needs to be modified so it can't collapse in CA, but I was hoping that whatever modification I do can be reversed somehow for when I travel to a free state. The idea of hammering a roll pin in and out of a $400 stock every time I leave the state seems nuts, but sounds like it might be the only option. Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

[Merc1138]

Makes sense. Jeeze, if they're going to create laws, they should at least answer questions people have about them. I know I know, that's a complaint for a whole different forum.

Specifically, I want to use a factory collapsible stock on a benelli m4, which I know needs to be modified so it can't collapse in CA, but I was hoping that whatever modification I do can be reversed somehow for when I travel to a free state. The idea of hammering a roll pin in and out of a $400 stock every time I leave the state seems nuts, but sounds like it might be the only option. Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

lol, you have to think like a sacramento politician. If they passed laws and then had an agency like the DOJ doing something to help people avoid breaking the new laws, then how would they find people to prosecute?

Personally, I just wouldn't bother removing the pin out of state. Set it for the length you need, fix it in place, and leave it alone. Or buy two stocks, fix one, and then just swap the stocks...

[CandG]

lol, you have to think like a sacramento politician. If they passed laws and then had an agency like the DOJ doing something to help people avoid breaking the new laws, then how would they find people to prosecute?

Personally, I just wouldn't bother removing the pin out of state. Set it for the length you need, fix it in place, and leave it alone. Or buy two stocks, fix one, and then just swap the stocks...

I'm not 100% sure, but I think you have to remove the pin (and push the button) before you can remove the stock, which also makes maintenance a pain in the butt. I think I'll take your advice and pin the stock where I want it, and just leave it alone and hope I don't need to take the stock back off any time soon. Or maybe just invest in an m1014 buffer tube that doesn't allow it to collapse. Thanks again for the input, it wasn't the answer I was hoping for, but it did answer my question

[tacticalcity]

Not only will the DOJ not help you figure out if something is legal by defining their stance on something, they go out of their way to convince you that what you want to do is illegal even when it is not. They have a long history of intimidation tactics. Such as telling FFLs that where interested in selling off-list lowers not to bother because "they would be illegal soon" so they were a bad investment and they would get stuck with them. Last I checked their website still says all ARs, AKs, and other "Assault Rifles" all illegal and makes no reference to the fact to the way the law actually works. Ebay, Amazon, and other companies are basing their official company policies on that bad/outdated information. The DOJ knows that, and is happy about it. The agency is more focused on pushing the left wing political agenda now widely accepted by the Democrat Party than enforcing the law and serving the citizenry.

I always get snapped at when I blame Democrats for this mess. Somebody will site how we have had Republican governors sign anti-gun laws and how some Democratic state Senator bucked the system and votes pro-gun. Well, we don't really have Conservative Republican governors in this state. In order to get elected, they can't be hardcore conservatives. They have to be RINOs by nature to have a prayer at winning, because they have to sway Democrats to vote for them in order to win. The more buddy-buddy they are with the NRA, the less chance of winning they have. As for the pro-gun Democrats, sadly they are a rare and dying bread. This state is and has been so overwhelmingly Democrat for so long that our state agencies now routinely prioritize pushing the liberal agenda shared by the Democrat Party ahead of doing their actual job. There is no better example of this than the DOJ. Both the overwhelmingly Democrat legislature and the left wing media all share that same agenda. So those agencies never get punished for putting politics before the law. The only exception to that rule is the rare court case they loose to Calguns and other pro-gun organizations. More often than not, they get away with it.

[Quiet]

Not only will the DOJ not help you figure out if something is legal by defining their stance on something, they will go out of their way to convince you that what you want to do is illegal even when it is not. They have a long history of intimidation tactics. Such as telling FFLs that where interested in selling off-list lowers not to bother because "they would be illegal soon" so they were a bad investment and they would get stuck with them. Last I checked their website still says all ARs, AKs, and other "Assault Rifles" all illegal and makes no reference to the fact to the way the law actually works. Ebay, Amazon, and other companies are basing their official company policies on that bad/outdated information. The DOJ knows that, and is happy about it. Some of their fear tactics and intimidation techniques of the past have been in writing and have been come back to bite them in the rear. Which is probably why the standard response these days is simply to refuse to discus the topic outright.

If anything CA DOJ BOF will instruct you that the collapsible stock must be welded in place in order to be considered a fix stock.

[CandG]

Update: I decided to go the route of drilling/tapping the button, and using a pin and a set screw to kep the stock from being adjustable. But oh good, I broke my tap in the button, and it appears that you cannot get replacement buttons anywhere! I dropped it off at a local machine shop earlier today, who said they can extract the tap and re-thread it for $100, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed, otherwise I've gotta buy another collapsing stock and try this all over again

[CandG]

Problem solved! Took my button to the machine shop yesterday, and they extracted the broken tap and re-tapped it for 6-32 (for $100). Made a pin out of a coathanger, dropped it in, placed a 1/4" long 6-32 set screw, and I'm all set! The stock is now permanently fixed in the middle position.

An unexpected, but welcome side effect of this project is that the set screw and pin put enough tension on the button, that the slight "wiggle" you get from the Benelli C-stock is eliminated, it's now rock-solid! Honestly, even if I lived in a free state, I would still consider doing this modification just for that benefit alone. Special thanks to fellow calgunner Fmlyman for his writeup of this project a while back, and his advice he provided me throughout this project. Pics of the final result below:

[CandG]

For some reason, the flash from the camera makes the threaded hole look a little mangled, but it actually looks great in person