HD shotgun question

[MXRider]

Whys that? That advantages do pistols and rifles have over a shotgun?

Advantages:
Weight (a loaded shotgun with side saddle is heavy)
Capacity (most HD shotguns are 7+1, a 9mm Glock is 17+1 and a carbine is 28+)
Ease of reloading (goes without saying unless you own a Saiga)
Recoil (even with reduced recoil loads they still hammer you)
Over penetration (12 ga 00 buck is one of the worst offenders for over penetration)
Length of the weapon (how big are your hallways again?)

Disadvantages:
?

Shotguns have a time and a place, but defending your family against an intruder in a residential dwelling is not one of them. A 9mm pistol with a weapon light makes a lot more sense due to its ease of use, large magazine capacity, ease of reloading, low recoil and it is quieter. A carbine also makes a lot of sense, but not anything with a mag lock in this nanny state.

[MossbergMan]

9mm v. 12ga.

To those that have been in harms way understand using a balliscally superior firearm for defense over a handgun round of any standard caliber (500SW doesn't count).

Granted some people just aren't physical enough to handle a long gun and the handgun is handy for carrying around....but given a chouce between a handgun or a shotgun, I'll take the fight stopping 12 bore everytime and all my friends, both of them. with shotguns or rifles.

Capacity: This always raises it's ugly head, It's a moot point. You are launching 9 thirty caliber pellets per shot of 00 buck....you don't need two or more rounds per customer as you do with handguns. The SG can be constantly topped off.

9 out of 10 gangbangers/convicts agree..."You don't mess with someone with a Gauge"

[CK_32]

Advantages:
Weight (a loaded shotgun with side saddle is heavy)
Capacity (most HD shotguns are 7+1, a 9mm Glock is 17+1 and a carbine is 28+)
Ease of reloading (goes without saying unless you own a Saiga)
Recoil (even with reduced recoil loads they still hammer you)
Over penetration (12 ga 00 buck is one of the worst offenders for over penetration)
Length of the weapon (how big are your hallways again?)

Disadvantages:
?

Shotguns have a time and a place, but defending your family against an intruder in a residential dwelling is not one of them. A 9mm pistol with a weapon light makes a lot more sense due to its ease of use, large magazine capacity, ease of reloading, low recoil and it is quieter. A carbine also makes a lot of sense, but not anything with a mag lock in this nanny state.

The main reason I go to my 870 to replace my ar15/glock17 yes I do own
both. Is because I like most have kids running in and out of my house and don't like keeping firearms loaded at all times. And I don't like having
magazines loaded at all times because I don't want to wear out or replace my springs ever couple years or have it malfunction when I need it most.

Capacity doesn't even factor in this because in California we are limited to capped mags at 10 rounds and 90% of people here cant legally obtain or use
a high cap mag of 10+ rounds in the firearms anyways with out facing legal issues.

So if you can show me someone who can load up 10 rounds in a pistol/carbine magazine before I can load 1 in the chamber and 6 in the tube
of my 870 Id like to meet them cause that's pretty amazing.

The average time it takes me to load up 10 rounds into my Glock magazine is 20.05 seconds. That's even with a 17 round magazine being lucky
enough to legally have one and which are substantially easier to load to 10 rounds than a fixed 10 rounds magazine.

The average time it takes me to load 10 rounds into carbine magazine is about 20.43 seconds. Both of these times don't even take into
account loading the magazine into the gun and employ that weapon.

The average time to load my Remington 870 with 6+1 is 11.32 seconds racked and at the ready.

That's why I chose to have my 870 as my MAIN home defense shotgun. But I do have plans in place for different situations where I would take my carbine
or hand gun over the 870.. But 90% of situations I am grabbing my 870.

If length is a concern then you might as well throw that carbine away too because OAL for both a rifle and shotgun are set at 26".

Weight..? My carbine weights around 6.85 lbs as it sits.. My 870 sits at about 7.51 lbs with 6 round side saddle. And that's with bare essentials.. I
don't load my guns up with useless tactical garbage like some of the guys holding their 15LB AR15 at the range.

For the over penetration.. Anything will go through the walls of your home. Your shooting a lead projectile any where from 1200 to 1900+ FPS. It will go
through a wall. But if anything a shotgun is better for this with all of the non lethal ammunition available..

Recoil..? I get no more kick from my carbine as I do 870 unless I'm shooting 3" buck or slugs.. Only time I start to feel it is after 50 to 60 shots of bird
shot and if it takes you that many rounds something is terribly wrong.

But again they all of their advantages and disadvantages.. Its the users responsibility to take into account all factors and figure out which is best for
their situation they may encounter.. But there is no one right and wrong answer on HD. But shot guns do have their place right with all the other rifles
and handguns out there.

To show I don't discriminate

[MXRider]

To those that have been in harms way understand using a balliscally superior firearm for defense over a handgun round of any standard caliber (500SW doesn't count). Except it's not for the reasons I already described.

Granted some people just aren't physical enough to handle a long gun and the handgun is handy for carrying around....but given a chouce between a handgun or a shotgun, I'll take the fight stopping 12 bore everytime and all my friends, both of them. with shotguns or rifles. Valid point, say your wife needed to operate the weapon, how well would she do with it? Also how good are you at manipulating that weapon one handed?

Capacity: This always raises it's ugly head, It's a moot point. You are launching 9 thirty caliber pellets per shot of 00 buck....you don't need two or more rounds per customer as you do with handguns. The SG can be constantly topped off. Valid point. What's on the other side of the bad guy though? Your kids room, your neighbours house etc?

9 out of 10 gangbangers/convicts agree..."You don't mess with someone with a Gauge"

The main reason I go to my 870 to replace my ar15/glock17 yes I do own
both. Is because I like most have kids running in and out of my house and don't like keeping firearms loaded at all times. And I don't like having
magazines loaded at all times because I don't want to wear out or replace my springs ever couple years or have it malfunction when I need it most. Springs wear out from expansion and contraction, not being compressed and staying there.

Capacity doesn't even factor in this because in California we are limited to capped mags at 10 rounds and 90% of people here cant legally obtain or use
a high cap mag of 10+ rounds in the firearms anyways with out facing legal issues. Pre ban mags.

So if you can show me someone who can load up 10 rounds in a pistol/carbine magazine before I can load 1 in the chamber and 6 in the tube
of my 870 Id like to meet them cause that's pretty amazing. This is a non point, keep loaded mags for your self defense weapon.

The average time it takes me to load up 10 rounds into my Glock magazine is 20.05 seconds. That's even with a 17 round magazine being lucky
enough to legally have one and which are substantially easier to load to 10 rounds than a fixed 10 rounds magazine. See above.

The average time it takes me to load 10 rounds into carbine magazine is about 20.43 seconds. Both of these times don't even take into
account loading the magazine into the gun and employ that weapon. See above.

The average time to load my Remington 870 with 6+1 is 11.32 seconds racked and at the ready. It takes 1-2 seconds to change a mag.

That's why I chose to have my 870 as my MAIN home defense shotgun. But I do have plans in place for different situations where I would take my carbine
or hand gun over the 870.. But 90% of situations I am grabbing my 870.

If length is a concern then you might as well throw that carbine away too because OAL for both a rifle and shotgun are set at 26". So your 18.5" barrel 870 is 26" OAL? I don't think so.

Weight..? My carbine weights around 6.85 lbs as it sits.. My 870 sits at about 7.51 lbs with 6 round side saddle. And that's with bare essentials.. I
don't load my guns up with useless tactical garbage like some of the guys holding their 15LB AR15 at the range. Your low capacity gun is heavy, face it.

For the over penetration.. Anything will go through the walls of your home. Your shooting a lead projectile any where from 1200 to 1900+ FPS. It will go
through a wall. But if anything a shotgun is better for this with all of the non lethal ammunition available.. See the FBI's articles on round choices in urban environments, 5.56 is king.

Recoil..? I get no more kick from my carbine as I do 870 unless I'm shooting 3" buck or slugs.. Only time I start to feel it is after 50 to 60 shots of bird
shot and if it takes you that many rounds something is terribly wrong. This is flat out an exaggeration and completely false. The SG has a much harder recoil impulse.

But again they all of their advantages and disadvantages.. Its the users responsibility to take into account all factors and figure out which is best for
their situation they may encounter.. But there is no one right and wrong answer on HD. But shot guns do have their place right with all the other rifles
and handguns out there. I agree completely, I am merely pointing out that times have changed and there is better equipment for the job.

Well if you guys want to go against what most training groups, SME's, the FBI, most LE agencies and the military recommend, go right ahead, but read my last bolded comment, it very much applies and should be considered.

[CK_32]

Well if you guys want to go against what most training groups, SME's, the FBI, most LE agencies and the military recommend, go right ahead, but read my last bolded comment, it very much applies and should be considered.

The problem with your bolded responses is your only going off purely your own personal uses. I'm talking broad spectrum of why others would consider a shotgun for home deference which is completely justifiable.

And just because the military and FBI ext does it doesn't mean it right or the best even tho both LEO/MIL still do use shotguns. Talk to some active members or recently retired and they will tell you how much BS and political a** kissing scratch my back and ill scratch yours goes on in the military. I know I work on a military base and ask all of this for these exact reasons. You cant follow what handgun magazine or the military channel tells you because its all to advertise or make a good exciting story for viewers and readers.

I actually have a really good close friend who is into personal high security (yes like taken) but its not that hollywood and has done some high profile people and worked for some pretty awesome venues and has taken me out to his training practices a few times and they use all sorts of weapons case by case.. And he disagrees with a lot the military and FBI do and there is even a saying in both the military and what my buddy does and thats "What ever the militarys/LEO is doing usually its 5 to 10 years out of date". Reason being is because most agencies and military offices have to train on what the guy above says.. which comes from a guy at a desk who gets a training program that's been being passed down for years to finally get to his desk and he finally approves it because it looks good but yet has sat at a desk for 15 years signing papers. Military and most LEO agencies are the worst things to follow because 1 what they show is old tactics so bad guys don't see what they actually do or its just out of date and horrible logic..

I know because I'm lucky enough to know a lot of people in both who have done all the stuff we want to do and am close with a lot of them and able to ask that stuff and know from people who know and have actually been there rather than some FUD dud who just got done reading guns magazine and magpul dynamics videos and is a self proclaimed front line commando.


And the military and LEO have mags at the ready because they are in constant danger and are usually on patrol.. And or have 20 min to load up and gear up before they enter a situation where they might have to use their firearms.. That's their jobs.. Most on the other hand like me don't need to use my firearms on situations daily. And for mags being warn out being used vs sitting loaded has still not been fully proven which and if you want to believe either or go for it.. But I know for a fact they don't get warn on shelves or in drawer.

but to each his own you have your way but there are MANY roles for a shotgun to fit in a HD role.. Again you just have to be sure it will work for YOUR situation.

[MXRider]

Agree to disagree then.

However you are wrong about the magazine springs. They do not wear out from being loaded and sitting for 5+ years, this has been proven. Load up mags and leave them until you need them, you will not harm them one bit.

[08duramax]

I am not buying this for my sole HD gun. I have numerous pistols and numerous ar15s. I just don't have a shotgun and I want one. It's just one more tool in the tool box. We can stop the measuring contest. I am adding this to a DROS for lowers so used is out of the question. Looks like the mossberg 930 is it. I have read a big problem with them is the magazine extension. I am actually looking at getting the standard 5 shot 18.5" barrel model and add a Nordic extension myself. Then later on I can change the stock if and when I want. Is there any other difference between these models?

[bernieb90]

Agree to disagree then.

However you are wrong about the magazine springs. They do not wear out from being loaded and sitting for 5+ years, this has been proven. Load up mags and leave them until you need them, you will not harm them one bit.

You sir are the one that is wrong about springs.

There are actually several ways for a spring to fail.
1. Mechanical overloading
2. Fatigue (fracture)
3. Stress relaxation (load loss)

Cycling a spring over and over will eventually lead to a broken spring, however this will take thousands, and sometimes millions of cycles.

Here is an article from a Rockford Spring a spring manufacturer on relaxation of springs.

Relaxation of Springs
Most springs are subject to some amount of relaxation during their life span even at room temperature. The amount of spring relaxation is a function of

•the spring material
•the stress the spring is exposed to
•the temperature
•the amount of time the spring is exposed to the higher stresses and temperatures.
This relaxation is usually less than 1 or 2% at room temperature, but can be much more when the spring is exposed to higher stresses or higher temperatures.


Relaxation is different than ordinary set. A highly stressed spring will set the first several times it is pressed, but within 5 to 10 cycles it has set as much as it is going to set.

Relaxation of springs is a function of a fairly high stress (but usually lower that required to cause set) over a period of time. A spring held at a certain stress will actually relax more in a given time than a spring cycled between that stress and a lower stress. The reason is that it spends more time at the high stress.It is often necessary to predict the amount of spring relaxation to expect over a certain period of time. This is done by first determining the operating temperature, the maximum amount of stress the spring sees and how long the spring will be exposed to the maximum stress and the elevated temperature over its lifetime.

Rockford Spring Company has charts for several materials and temperatures. Examples are given below. For situations where the charts do not cover the specific case, we can do accelerated spring relaxation experiments for specific springs. This is done by measuring relaxation at short intervals such as 1 hour, 5 hours, 10 hours, 50 hours and 100 hours and then plotting % relaxation vs. log time. The resulting graph can be extrapolated to 5, 10, 20 years or longer to predict the % relaxation at the design life of the spring.

Relaxation in service can be virtually eliminated by 100% heat setting the springs. Heat setting involves holding the spring at a high stress at an elevated temperature and causing the spring to undergo all the relaxation it would be expected to see over it's lifetime. We would coil the springs longer, allowing for the heat setting operation. After heat set, the loads would be at the required specification, and would stay there for the life of the part. The only downside to heat setting is the additional cost. Contact Rockford Spring Company for more information.

The examples below show some data from the kind of charts Rockford Spring Company has available, and the differences in spring relaxation performance between different types of spring materials. Contact Rockford Spring Company for your application.


Music 200 deg F 72 hrs 5% relaxation at 99,000 PSI
CR-SI 200 deg F 72 hrs 5% relaxation at 135,000 PSI
17-7SS 550 deg F 72 hrs 5% relaxation at 175,000 PSI




Music 200 deg F 10,000 hrs 5% relaxation at 76,000 PSI
CR-SI 200 deg F 10,000 hrs 5% relaxation at 117,000 PSI
17-7SS 500 deg F 10,000 hrs 5% relaxation at 160,000 PSI

However a properly designed magazine spring should provide years of service without issue. The common practice of downloading one round in magazines with highly stressed magazine springs reduces peak stress on the spring, and therefore extends life. Rotaing magazines by decompressings springs extends spring life. Quality springs are the key for spring life. Proper heat treatment, and quality material is vital. The higher the tensile strength of the wire the less load loss there will be. I bough some cheap mags for my Sig 229 and started having double-feeds after loading the mag twice. Factory mags have been loaded for years (downloaded 1) and feel brand new and function fine.

[bernieb90]

The main reason I go to my 870 to replace my ar15/glock17 yes I do own
both. Is because I like most have kids running in and out of my house and don't like keeping firearms loaded at all times. And I don't like having
magazines loaded at all times because I don't want to wear out or replace my springs ever couple years or have it malfunction when I need it most.

I would like to point out that if you are running a P-Mag 10/20 or 10/30 you are only loading 10 rounds in a magazine intended for 20 or 30. You can leave the magazine loaded, and the polymer it is made of will probably turn to dust before the spring fails.

[hermosabeach]

Springs- I purchased a mossberg sporting combo in 1990. I have removed the mag tub and cleaned the rust off of the spring, lubed and reinstalled the spring

Simce 1990, the mossberg has been loaded 5+1

I have run the gun in several classes and shot the finish off of the mag tube
I have maybe 2000 rounds through the gun.

My first glock was picked up in 1994. I keep the mags loaded- no issues to date

I would like to thank Larry the mossberg man for teaching me a lot in those classes out at enterprise and 5 Dogs....

I have had issues with 1911 .45acp mags failing
I have also had issues with AR15 mags- weakened springs and cracked feed lips

So far shotgun and glock are not suffering from remaining loaded for decades

Just my experience.......

[bernieb90]

Shotgun magazine tube springs definetly weaken with time. I have an old Mossberg 500, and the old magazine spring is much shorter than a new mossberg spring or a new Wolff spring. In fact it now only extends a couple inches past the end of the tube which results in slow feeding of the last round.

[MXRider]

My apologies for spreading wrong info. However there are numerous reports of USGI mags sitting for 10+ years with 28 rounds in them, and they are still 100% functional. There is even a report of a 90 year old mag loaded that still functioned. I was merely trying to stop the fear people have of leaving a mag loaded, it really is a non issue.

[MossbergMan]

MX, to answer some of your questions.
My wife has her own 590A1 and shoots it very well. My 15y/o son is my SG competition shooting partner and we win,place or show every month.

One handed operation? It can be done, I now how to do it, but short of being wounded I don't see why I'd have to shoot one handed. I have my gun set up with a dedicated white light and the phone can rest on the bed during an encounter.

Free Fire and Restricted fire zones: I have areas I cannot shoot from a standing position because of collateral damage issues (kids rooms). However if an intruder gets past my bedroom door I just kneel or lie on the floor to change my angle of fire thus the term restricted zones not NO Shoot zones.

Handguns work, but you have to be at the top of your game. You have to shot more for the same effects on target. So we agree to disagree and I'm fine with that. To each their own and it makes the world an interesting place.

[bernieb90]

My apologies for spreading wrong info. However there are numerous reports of USGI mags sitting for 10+ years with 28 rounds in them, and they are still 100% functional. There is even a report of a 90 year old mag loaded that still functioned. I was merely trying to stop the fear people have of leaving a mag loaded, it really is a non issue.

No worries. I agree there should be no fear of leaving mags loaded that is what they are for. Magazine springs are just like any other springs on a gun. Recoil springs get changed ever so often, and if you are really worried about it you can change magazine springs every 5 years or so. If you actually shoot your pistol you will see problems with the magazine and can address the issue before it becomes a problem in a critical situation. Double feeds are the most common magazine related failure due to weak springs.

Downloading by just 2 rounds reduces stress on an AR magazine spring significantly. 7 round 1911 mags were designed to be loaded for long periods of time with no issues. When they started redesigning followers to fit another round stress on the spring increased, and so did the rate of spring failure.

Again shoot your pistol, and replace magazines, or magazine parts when they no longer function properly. Magazines are wear items on a firearm. M16 mags were originally designed to be disposable so this was never supposed to be an issue. People think mags last forever. A great deal of failures in semi-automatic firearms can be traced to bad magazines with either deformed/cracked feed lips, weak springs, or deformed bodies. If a mag does not work properly mark it, or toss it out the problem will not resolve itself.

Another thing to note is that some firearms are more tolerant of weaker magazine springs than others. A magazine that works fine in a Govt. model 5" 1911 may cause issues in an Officers' model due to increased slide velocity.

[MXRider]

MX, to answer some of your questions.
My wife has her own 590A1 and shoots it very well. My 15y/o son is my SG competition shooting partner and we win,place or show every month.

One handed operation? It can be done, I now how to do it, but short of being wounded I don't see why I'd have to shoot one handed. I have my gun set up with a dedicated white light and the phone can rest on the bed during an encounter.

Free Fire and Restricted fire zones: I have areas I cannot shoot from a standing position because of collateral damage issues (kids rooms). However if an intruder gets past my bedroom door I just kneel or lie on the floor to change my angle of fire thus the term restricted zones not NO Shoot zones.

Handguns work, but you have to be at the top of your game. You have to shot more for the same effects on target. So we agree to disagree and I'm fine with that. To each their own and it makes the world an interesting place.

Thanks for the responses. Regarding the one handed operation, being wounded was one of the concerns, but also using a phone or shielding your children or trying to move with one was the idea behind my question.