Has anyone here bought a C&R SBS in California?

[Capybara]

I've been doing some research and digging around the penal code. Based upon what I have discovered, I stumbled upon this post https://www.calguns.net/forum/politi...a#post11287964 from CGer KE6GUJ that is 17 years old. It cites PC that is so old, the numbers have all been changed.

Based upon what I could reconstruct, PEN 33215 is the PC that forbids ordinary mortals in California from owning an SBS or an SBR. Yes, I know you can with CADOJ permission but they only issue that to manufacturers, Hollywood prop houses and armorers for entertainment. I am not in any of those categories.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=33215.&lawCo de=PEN

PEN 16590(s) defines a short barreled shotgun or rifle https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16590.&lawCo de=PEN

PEN 17705(a) seems to be the real key in finding an exemption to owning an SBS in California if you are not in law enforcement and that is the C&R exemption. It specifically states that PEN 16590(s) does not apply for curio and relic status firearms. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=17705.&lawCo de=PEN

So, if my research is correct and if the there is no other confounding PC, I have located an NFA registered C&R SBS, a mid 1960s era Remington 870 Wingmaster with a 14" barrel in another state that I think I can buy from an FFL. I am speaking with a couple of LA area FFL07/02s and I may have one lined up who can do the Form 3 from the dealer in Texas to them and do the Form 4 from them to me. I already have a Remington 12" 870 AOW and I just did an E Form 1 to turn my AR pistol into an AOW but I would like to complete the collection with a C&R SBS. Then I think I will have maxed out on the NFA items I can reasonably obtain in California since I will never receive a DWP from the CADOJ. I have my FFL03 and COE.

Any feedback or gotchas from anyone who owns or has purchased a C&R SBS or SBR in California? From my understanding and research, one cannot "make" a C&R Firearm into an NFA item in California as making a new firearm to NFA register changes the weapons status and you lose the C&R status which is the only way we can have an NFA C&R SBS or SBR in this state. In America, I think you could change it since modern SBS and SBRs are allowed in most states in America.

Thanks for any advice or input.

[k1dude]

Very interesting. Good luck.

I wonder if you acquire it if you're allowed to cut the barrel shorter?

[Capybara]

Very interesting. Good luck.

I wonder if you acquire it if you're allowed to cut the barrel shorter?

Yes, you could. All an SBS is is a long gun with a shorter than 18" barrel. Most of the 14" barrel SBS hold 4-6 shells. My Remington 870 AOW has a 12" barrel and it holds 4 + 1. I'd be happy with a 14" barrel on a C&R SBS.

[Dirk Tungsten]

Please keep us posted on this, as this is something I'm also interested in but there's very little info out there on the subject. Good luck!

[Capybara]

Running into some obstacles, I'll keep you guys updated. I feel pretty confident that this can legally be done within the Penal Codes cited. But finding two 07/02 dealers, especially one here in So Cal that understand how to do the Form 3 and the Form 4 may be a challenge as doing Form 4s in California for civilians is a pretty rare occurrence. There are several LA area FFL07/02s that mostly do business with law enforcement agencies who could do it but the ones I've spoken with, understandably, don't want to deal with civilians. I get it.

[Capybara]

An update for anyone interested. I spoke at length with the FFL in Texas selling the shotgun and came to agreement on price. I spoke with an FFL here about if they would do the Form 3 for transfer from the out of state dealer and the Form 4 to transfer to me and they would. The cost was significant but not outrageous as it is a lot of paperwork on their part. They told me that they had plenty of Form 4s for Californians in process and most were taking a year plus. When I asked their opinion on if the ATF would okay the transfer, they seemed to think it was about 50/50. I thought about it, I would be paying a decent price for the gun, plus shipping I was paying a good chunk of change to the dealer out here. They said if it took longer than 6 months, it was a $20 per month storage charge to hold the gun until it was approved, which is fair.

Worse case scenario would be if the ATF denied the Form 4. Then I would own a gun that I couldn't take possession of and would be paying $20 per month for the dealer to store it while I try to sell it outside of California via Gunbroker. So I debated it, really considered the upside and downside and in the end, I decided that it simply wasn't worth the risk. I have been waiting for almost four months on my Form 1 to make my AR pistol into an AOW and based upon that journey, some have been successful in doing so while others have been denied repeatedly. I went over the PC with a fine toothed comb and I still feel it is legal to own a C&R SBS or SBR in California but who knows if the ATF would interpret it in the same way? All in, I was looking at $1,600-$1,800 plus DROS plus sales tax (yes, because its a dealer transfer, was going to get gouged for Gavin's 11% and sales tax too!) It was a lot of money to gamble on a maybe and if ATF didn't approve, I would be out a considerable amount of money because a C&R SBS, while rare, in a free state in America really isn't worth much compared to here. Why buy a C&R SBS in America if you can buy a brand new SBS for $500? Something we cannot do here.

Nobody posted here on if they have heard of anyone ever successfully Form 4 a C&R SBS or SBR here and I asked around on other forums and didn't get any responses. That PC 17705 seems to make it so it is a legal exemption to the SBS/SBR PC but I guess I will never know. If I was wealthier, I would just roll the dice and see but $2k+ is significant money for me to potentially lose.

[wilit]

An update for anyone interested. I spoke at length with the FFL in Texas selling the shotgun and came to agreement on price. I spoke with an FFL here about if they would do the Form 3 for transfer from the out of state dealer and the Form 4 to transfer to me and they would. The cost was significant but not outrageous as it is a lot of paperwork on their part. They told me that they had plenty of Form 4s for Californians in process and most were taking a year plus. When I asked their opinion on if the ATF would okay the transfer, they seemed to think it was about 50/50. I thought about it, I would be paying a decent price for the gun, plus shipping I was paying a good chunk of change to the dealer out here. They said if it took longer than 6 months, it was a $20 per month storage charge to hold the gun until it was approved, which is fair.

Worse case scenario would be if the ATF denied the Form 4. Then I would own a gun that I couldn't take possession of and would be paying $20 per month for the dealer to store it while I try to sell it outside of California via Gunbroker. So I debated it, really considered the upside and downside and in the end, I decided that it simply wasn't worth the risk. I have been waiting for almost four months on my Form 1 to make my AR pistol into an AOW and based upon that journey, some have been successful in doing so while others have been denied repeatedly. I went over the PC with a fine toothed comb and I still feel it is legal to own a C&R SBS or SBR in California but who knows if the ATF would interpret it in the same way? All in, I was looking at $1,600-$1,800 plus DROS plus sales tax (yes, because its a dealer transfer, was going to get gouged for Gavin's 11% and sales tax too!) It was a lot of money to gamble on a maybe and if ATF didn't approve, I would be out a considerable amount of money because a C&R SBS, while rare, in a free state in America really isn't worth much compared to here. Why buy a C&R SBS in America if you can buy a brand new SBS for $500? Something we cannot do here.

Nobody posted here on if they have heard of anyone ever successfully Form 4 a C&R SBS or SBR here and I asked around on other forums and didn't get any responses. That PC 17705 seems to make it so it is a legal exemption to the SBS/SBR PC but I guess I will never know. If I was wealthier, I would just roll the dice and see but $2k+ is significant money for me to potentially lose.

I don't think you've found much info on it because I think a C&R SBS in CA is as rare as hen's teeth. I looked into this 10 years ago and really found not much in the way of first hand experience. California actually has a huge number of NFA guns, but they're 98% in Hollywood. When I was looking for C&R's on Gunbroker, they would come up occasionally, usually for modest money, but no one was ever willing to work with a CA resident in a non-LEO capacity. I think the fact that you've made as much progress as you have is pretty positive.

[Capybara]

I don't think you've found much info on it because I think a C&R SBS in CA is as rare as hen's teeth. I looked into this 10 years ago and really found not much in the way of first hand experience. California actually has a huge number of NFA guns, but they're 98% in Hollywood. When I was looking for C&R's on Gunbroker, they would come up occasionally, usually for modest money, but no one was ever willing to work with a CA resident in a non-LEO capacity. I think the fact that you've made as much progress as you have is pretty positive.

Yeah, I work in Hollywood periodically and over the years worked on some gun heavy shows like 24, Homeland and Prison Break. I did a really fun shoot at Angeles working with an armorer that was focused on beautiful women in Bikinis shooting machine guns, that was an interesting shoot. I agree, most of the NFA weapons in the state are either LEAs or prop houses

I was excited to find an out of state seller who would sell me their C&R SBS (at a premium), but as you say, even nationally, finding a C&R SBS is quite the treasure hunt. I was very tempted to move ahead to do the whole thing, but it seems, in researching even researching just AOWs in Ca. the ATF is very fickle in approving them and it just depends on which investigator you get. I know that AOWs are legal in California since I've owned one since 2012, but I've spoken with several who have been turned down by the ATF with the investigator citing that "SBS are illegal in California". AOWs are rare here but C&R SBS seem a lot rarer. I try to be financially responsible as I am not young and don't have a pension so I have to be fiscally conservative and when I added up all of the costs with the percentage of possible success, it just didn't pencil out for me.

The other downside is because owning a C&R SBS here is extremely rare, one has to be prepared for having their SBS confiscated and possibly be arrested because cops don't always want to listen to your logical dissertation and paperwork on why its legal for you to own this illegal looking firearm. They may arrest you, run you in, confiscate and possibly destroy your gun while they let the DA figure it all out. It's kind of a drag to own something completely legal but still be paranoid to shoot it in public so that's something to be considered too.

But if anyone else wants to try this and is willing to take the financial risks and has the patience to wait possibly as long as year to 18 months to get their C&R SBS in hand, PM me and I can give you some details that I don't want to post here.

[wilit]

Yeah, I work in Hollywood periodically and over the years worked on some gun heavy shows like 24, Homeland and Prison Break. I did a really fun shoot at Angeles working with an armorer that was focused on beautiful women in Bikinis shooting machine guns, that was an interesting shoot. I agree, most of the NFA weapons in the state are either LEAs or prop houses

I was excited to find an out of state seller who would sell me their C&R SBS (at a premium), but as you say, even nationally, finding a C&R SBS is quite the treasure hunt. I was very tempted to move ahead to do the whole thing, but it seems, in researching even researching just AOWs in Ca. the ATF is very fickle in approving them and it just depends on which investigator you get. I know that AOWs are legal in California since I've owned one since 2012, but I've spoken with several who have been turned down by the ATF with the investigator citing that "SBS are illegal in California". AOWs are rare here but C&R SBS seem a lot rarer. I try to be financially responsible as I am not young and don't have a pension so I have to be fiscally conservative and when I added up all of the costs with the percentage of possible success, it just didn't pencil out for me.

The other downside is because owning a C&R SBS here is extremely rare, one has to be prepared for having their SBS confiscated and possibly be arrested because cops don't always want to listen to your logical dissertation and paperwork on why its legal for you to own this illegal looking firearm. They may arrest you, run you in, confiscate and possibly destroy your gun while they let the DA figure it all out. It's kind of a drag to own something completely legal but still be paranoid to shoot it in public so that's something to be considered too.

But if anyone else wants to try this and is willing to take the financial risks and has the patience to wait possibly as long as year to 18 months to get their C&R SBS in hand, PM me and I can give you some details that I don't want to post here.

I've recently resurrected the idea of getting an AOW. When I first looked at it, it was a bit more difficult, but now it seems a bit easier. Also, the cheaper tax stamp (not that may be an issue any more) and the fact you can more easily travel interstate with an AOW rather than an SBS seems like a better deal. Plus the availability is a little better with the AOW. But you're right about a LEO not knowing the law ruining your life. I remember a story here a bunch of years ago about a LEO that arrested a CALGUNS member for a legally owned 1919A4 and it was a pretty traumatic event. I actually owned a 1919A4 at the time and decided that, along with the new laws coming down the pipeline, it wasn't worth the ownership to me.

[Capybara]

I've recently resurrected the idea of getting an AOW. When I first looked at it, it was a bit more difficult, but now it seems a bit easier. Also, the cheaper tax stamp (not that may be an issue any more) and the fact you can more easily travel interstate with an AOW rather than an SBS seems like a better deal. Plus the availability is a little better with the AOW. But you're right about a LEO not knowing the law ruining your life. I remember a story here a bunch of years ago about a LEO that arrested a CALGUNS member for a legally owned 1919A4 and it was a pretty traumatic event. I actually owned a 1919A4 at the time and decided that, along with the new laws coming down the pipeline, it wasn't worth the ownership to me.

Legally, you can put a folding brace on an AOW. As to whether or not an overzealous cop would bust you for it, that's another question. Calfornia has no legal definition of a brace, even though the Feds do.

The no NFA fees doesn't take effect until 01/01/26. If you do it today, you're still going to pay the $200 to make an shotgun-based AOW from a Shockwave unless you are transferring an existing AOW from a dealer or PPT.

I've been trying to work out, I was wondering if one could legally buy an 18.5" Mossberg 990 Aftershock, apply for an AOW stamp, wait for approval, then you could cut 4" off the barrel to have a 14.5" barrel like everyone in America that can buy the 14.5" version of the 990 Shockwave as a "Firearm". Then you would have a semi-auto AOW. Remember, an AOW is exempt from California's SBS and SBR regs but not the AWB regs. If you carefully read the Assault Weapon PC PEN 30516 (9) about "A semiutomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol or shotgun that DOES NOT have a fixed magazine" (of course, the 990 Shockwave HAS a fixed magazine that holds less than 10 rounds!) , https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=30515.&lawCo de=PEN seems as if you could have a semi-automatic fixed magazine AOW that you could affix the fwd grip to and a folding brace to, LEGALLY. But then we hit PEN 30515 (11) "A semiautomatic centerfire firearm that is not a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, that has an overall length of less than 30 inches." and I think that's where it all falls apart. The proposed AOW would definitely be shorter than 30" OAL. So in the end, we are stuck with only pump, single or double barrel PGO shotguns as a starting point because pump, single and double barrels aren't mentioned in PEN 30515.

It's kind of amazing in how the laws were carefully written to cut off any potential loopholes or exemptions, even when going for the obscure category of "Firearm" rather than rifle, pistol or shotgun. In the end, I've satisfied my itch for a short length shotgun by buying the M&P 12 Bullpump. 27.8" OAL and 14+1 capacity is actually pretty cool and it's a fun and reliable gun.