Is a Saiga-12 AOW still a shotgun?

[iBkickinit]

*YES it is. I have been schooled*
In my quest for an AOW Saiga-12, I started questioning whether it would still have to have a fixed magazine. Under PC 12276.1:

(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

So can an AOW be considered a shotgun as well? I'm thinking it must be (which sucks) but I'd love to have someone spell it out for me.

ADDED: *still looking and can't find any law deeming it a shotgun. My consensus is that since you cant make an AOW from a stocked firearm, it can't be both*

Federal definition of a shotgun is:

"A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. 18 USC"

If I AOW'd my AR and AK pistols, I would be rid of the 10-rd limit? Too good to be true. If it isn't, then I just had a wet-dream on a public forum.

[coma13]

I'm not anywhere near an expert, but I know that the magazine capacity limit and the AWB are two separate issues, so even if you were allowed to drop your magazines freely, they would still have to be owned by you prior to 2000. Entirely possible for your AK and AR pistol, but not really for your Saiga 12.

Just the ability to have an AOW Saiga 12 without a magazine lock is exceedingly appealing, though. I'll just wait until the real Calguns experts come along.

[iBkickinit]

I believe the 10-rd limit on fixed guns is part of the AWB, so if AOW's are exempt by definition, they shouldn't be limited by size of magazine or method of attachment. The same way AOW status allows an AR/AK pistol to have a forward pistol grip without being illegal... I'm very interested in the answer!

[Grumpyoldretiredcop]

You're trying to reconcile two different bodies of law - the United States Code (Federal law) and the California Penal Code. The definition of "shotgun" in the Penal Code section is not conditioned on the Federal definition of "shotgun". There is no "AOW" in the Penal Code. The Saiga is a "shotgun" as far as CA law is concerned. They are separate and distinct.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, even if you were to manage to obtain an AOW stamp for a Saiga, you still have to contend with PC 12276 et. seq. and the magazine lock requirement in order to avoid possessing an unregistered assault weapon. In addition, you'd have to deal with the CA Penal Code prohibition of short-barreled shotguns as stated in 12020 (c) (1):

(c) (1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means
any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed
shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches
in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches
and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed
shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

A review of this thread will likely be helpful.

[ke6guj]

In my quest for an AOW Saiga-12, I started questioning whether it would still have to have a fixed magazine. Under PC 12276.1:



So can an AOW be considered a shotgun as well? I'm thinking it must be (which sucks) but I'd love to have someone spell it out for me.

ADDED: *still looking and can't find any law deeming it a shotgun. My consensus is that since you cant make an AOW from a stocked firearm, it can't be both*

Federal definition of a shotgun is:



If I AOW'd my AR and AK pistols, I would be rid of the 10-rd limit? Too good to be true. If it isn't, then I just had a wet-dream on a public forum.

even if it does not meet the CA-defintion of a shotgun, so the shotgun AW regs shouldn't apply, it still meets the CA defintion of a pistol, so the pistol AW regs still apply.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
So, you still can't have a detachable magazine on a AOW.

I believe the 10-rd limit on fixed guns is part of the AWB, so if AOW's are exempt by definition, they shouldn't be limited by size of magazine or method of attachment. The same way AOW status allows an AR/AK pistol to have a forward pistol grip without being illegal... I'm very interested in the answer!

why would federally-defined AOWs be exempt from a state law that does not mention AOWs?

CA law allows for a VFG on a fixed-mag AR/AK pistol. CA doesn't care if it is an AOW or not. YOu jsut have to ahve the tax stamp to comply with ATF's interpretation of federal law.

[ke6guj]

You're trying to reconcile two different bodies of law - the United States Code (Federal law) and the California Penal Code. The definition of "shotgun" in the Penal Code section is not conditioned on the Federal definition of "shotgun". There is no "AOW" in the Penal Code. The Saiga is a "shotgun" as far as CA law is concerned. They are separate and distinct.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, even if you were to manage to obtain an AOW stamp for a Saiga, you still have to contend with PC 12276 et. seq. and the magazine lock requirement in order to avoid possessing an unregistered assault weapon. In addition, you'd have to deal with the CA Penal Code prohibition of short-barreled shotguns as stated in 12020 (c) (1): (c) (1)

AOW S-12s are legally available in CA right now. Yes, CA would consider them to be an SBS, even if they don't meet the defintion of shotgun in CA. However, as a federally-defined AOW that is properly possessed by the owner (has the proper registration), 12020(b)(8) exempts the AOW from 12020(a)(1), but as you mention, you still have to comply with 12276.1

[iBkickinit]

Thank you gentlemen, it makes sense now. I really gotta think about finding a free-state to live in...