What are non-lethal shotgun ammo?

[Greg-Dawg]

Thinking about purchasing a shotgun for home defense, but have some concerns.

Non-lethal shotgun ammo...
What are they, what certain type are out there, and are they legal to purchase?

[M. Sage]

If it's for home-defense, why go less-lethal? Just curious.

Birdshot is less-lethal and legal (seriously low chances of killing a person with it). No matter what you use in self-defense, though, it's going to get the same amount of scrutiny and have the same liabilities as using buckshot and slugs, IMO.

[blkA4alb]

There is no such thing as a non lethal round. Only less than lethal, beanbags and such still can and do kill people.

On that note, if you want the shotgun for home defense there is no reason I can see that you would want anything less than buckshot.

Dead men tell no stories.

[Greg-Dawg]

What about those "sand bag" types?

Yes, Less Lethal sounds better.

[hossb7]

why would you want to use LESS THAN LETHAL ammo on someone who is putting your life, and the lives of your family in serious danger?

[olegk]

sault works pretty good if you put shot to someone *****

[five.five-six]

If it's for home-defense, why go less-lethal? Just curious.

Birdshot is less-lethal and legal (seriously low chances of killing a person with it). .

IIRC, when i took my hunter safety course back in 1979, part of the course showed a video which included a 12ga with birdshot cutting a 2"X4" in half from about 1 foot

[AJAX22]

It's available, but its not a good idea IMHO.

Its best if the police get one story of how events went down.

and the civil suit that the perp will file (since your 'less lethal' blast rendered him unable to pursue his career in investment banking) will probably cost you your house.

YMMV

[mooster]

I work with NLW as part of my job. I applaud your choice for considering less-lethal rounds. Unfortunately, these rounds were not intended for a home defense role. You can try to use them but I would not advise it.

You have 3 basic types of round: rubber buckshot, sock and beanbag. Rubber buckshot is intended for crowd control. They are used to dissuade groups of agitators and hold back their advance. The balls are low density rubber and lose velocity extremely fast. Normally, the effect is stinging and welts.

The beanbag was one of the 1st less-lethal rounds made available for law enforcement. They are typically square kevlar bags filled with shot. Most agencies are actually phasing then out in favor of sock rounds. The shape of the beanbag is problematic -think of a small pillow folded in half and stuffed in a shotshell. When they deploy correctly, they are supposed to open up and fly with the flat side toward the target. This isn't very aerodynamic and accuracy can suffer quite a bit. If the bags don't deploy correctly, they come out still compressed in a cylinder shape or fly like a frisbee. The projectiles are quite damaging and frequently lethal in this state. LAPD switched to rifled barrel shotguns for more consistent deployment of bean bags.

"Sock" rounds are newer and overcome many of the issues with bean bags. They are basically a soft payload (sand) with some sort of tail for stabilization. They are more accurate and deploy consistently because of their design. The sock are the same concept as the bean bag, but with updated technology. Some use the terms interchangeably.

With the sock/beanbag the effect on target varies drastically. When hit, some people stop what they are doing immediately and become compliant. With others, it can take SEVERAL DOZEN rounds until the person gives up.

Hope this helps. As other calgunners have stated, all these rounds are lethal if used incorrectly. Also, most manufacturers don't sell to civilians so your choices may be limited.

As for gun selection you will have to stick with a pump. There are no non-lethal rounds that can cycle a semi-auto. Also, most rounds are designed for smoothbore shotguns. In addition, I would shy away from Ithaca shotguns for NLW. My instructor indicated that the Ithaca's have very tight barrels and during testing sometimes the rounds would get stuck inside!

BTW. I use an aftermarket, Ithaca rifled barrel on my Benelli and she fires socks and the other rounds without any issues.

[E. Fudd]

My understanding is that bean bag rounds and the like can be lethal if fired at close range (ie. indoor distances) and if fired at the head, chest, etc. (blunt trauma), not to mention groin...

They are designed to be shot at from a distance and at targets similar to police baton 'less than lethal' areas (e.g. thighs, legs, etc.)

[DrjonesUSA]

Thinking about purchasing a shotgun for home defense, but have some concerns.

Non-lethal shotgun ammo...
What are they, what certain type are out there, and are they legal to purchase?

No such thing.

They are LESS LETHAL.

And they are NOT for use by civilians in self-defense situations for a million possible reasons;

what if you are unsuccessful in deterring the bad guy and he proceeds to kill you? Woulda turned out differently if you would have used REAL bullets.

I'd imagine that there would be a lot of controversy if you used less-lethals and it would probably open you up to some legal liability - if you are justified in shooting, shoot the guy with real bullets. The fact that you use less-lethals will lead prosecutors to believe that you were not truly in fear of your life and were not justified in shooting at all.

There are a million reasons why less-lethal rounds are NOT a good idea for self-defense.

[DrjonesUSA]

With the sock/beanbag the effect on target varies drastically. When hit, some people stop what they are doing immediately and become compliant. With others, it can take SEVERAL DOZEN rounds until the person gives up.

If you need to shoot someone SEVERAL DOZEN TIMES with a SHOTGUN, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with your tactics.

Was that a typo??

[mooster]

My understanding is that bean bag rounds and the like can be lethal if fired at close range (ie. indoor distances) and if fired at the head, chest, etc. (blunt trauma), not to mention groin...

They are designed to be shot at from a distance and at targets similar to police baton 'less than lethal' areas (e.g. thighs, legs, etc.)

Correct. I have a picture of target areas on my desk. There are red, yellow and green engagement areas. Head, chest and groin are red due to high probability of permanent injury.

With bean bags you need around 10yrds for the bag to fully deploy. With the socks you are down to 5 yrds.

[mooster]

No such thing.
They are LESS LETHAL.

If you need to shoot someone SEVERAL DOZEN TIMES with a SHOTGUN, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with your tactics.
Was that a typo??

Not a typo. Also, not my tactics. I'm only a civilian that works/trains with LEO and military. I have never used (and hope never to) use such force against someone.

On the LEO force continuum, the socks/bean-bags rank about the same level as using a baton. You can have multiple strikes to gain compliance. Most people give up after one hit. In the cases studies I was referring to, it was either a "highly motivated individual" or a crazy/druggie that needed multiple hits.

One of the case studies we covered was an fugitive hiding in the attic. Chemical munitions did not have any effect and the subject refused to budge. It took something like +16 beanbag rounds before they complied.

One of my classmates had a situation where a individual had a knife and was threatening to injure himself and the officers. When the subject started to stab himself (the first stab he jammed the knife up under his jaw, second stab he jammed it THRU his forearm), the officer began firing sock rounds at him. At the 4th hit, the subject dropped the knife and the police were able to move in.

[M. Sage]

IIRC, when i took my hunter safety course back in 1979, part of the course showed a video which included a 12ga with birdshot cutting a 2"X4" in half from about 1 foot

Yeah, you wouldn't want to get shot with it. But the odds of actually killing someone with some #8 are pretty damn low.

As noted above though - if someone's already in your home, why take the long road with a less- or non-lethal defense before you go to lethal force? They ain't gonna go "less-lethal" on you, no reason for you to.