what is a loaded shotgun?

[prc77]

My neighbor and I have been having a disagreement over what is a loaded shotgun.

Empty chamber, empty magtube, attached sidesaddle full. Is this loaded?
I say it is not, he says it is.

I am aware of People v. Clark

Then there is LE interpretation.

[Japsican]

A full sidesaddle is not considered loaded. A full mag tube would be.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

[CSACANNONEER]

There is what is legal and then there is what some misinformed people (including LEOs and gun shop owners/employees) who don't understand the law.

You are correct and your buddy is wrong.

[TangoCharlie]

He may be confusing this with the detachable mag scenario. If a loaded magazine is not inserted but is touching the gun, the gun is considered loaded by LE.

[CSACANNONEER]

He may be confusing this with the detachable mag scenario. If a loaded magazine is not inserted but is touching the gun, the gun is considered loaded by LE.

Some misinformed LEOs might consider it loaded but, the law does not!

[Merc1138]

He may be confusing this with the detachable mag scenario. If a loaded magazine is not inserted but is touching the gun, the gun is considered loaded by LE.

The LEO can consider that to be a chia pet for all it matters, he doesn't write laws. A magazine touching the gun does not mean it's loaded.

[-hanko]

He may be confusing this with the detachable mag scenario. If a loaded magazine is not inserted but is touching the gun, the gun is considered loaded by LE.

Bravo-sierra, at least in my own interactions with law enforcement.

Are you a cop or speaking for cops??

-hanko

[killathrilla]

Simple concept brothas.....if you have a firearm and are transporting it ( I assume that's the point of the question) lock up the firearm in a container with no ammo in the firearm...no ammo on the firearm...no ammo touching the firearm....and store the ammo in a bag or box seperate! Why even take the chance with a LEO....I don't know about you guys but I don't have an extra 20 grand to try to prove a point.

[Riverman]

Penal code 12031 (g) - a firearm is considered loaded when there is a live round of ammunition in or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip therefore attached to the firearm. - using certain accessories which attach to the firearm and are designed to store additional ammunition may cause the firearm to be considered loaded... It's a grey area like the million other gun laws in california.

[CSACANNONEER]

Penal code 12031 (g) - a firearm is considered loaded when there is a live round of ammunition in or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip therefore attached to the firearm. - using certain accessories which attach to the firearm and are designed to store additional ammunition may cause the firearm to be considered loaded... It's a grey area like the million other gun laws in california.

Sorry, it's not a gray area. It's already been ruled on in a court of law. Note the OP's reference to People v. Clark.

[bumpo628]

Sorry, it's not a gray area. It's already been ruled on in a court of law. Note the OP's reference to People v. Clark.

While there is a court precedent that a lawyer could use to get the charges dropped, a LEO could still arrest you using his interpretation of the law. Specifically the "attached in any manner to" part.

It is not worth the time and cost of putting yourself in that situation.

[TangoCharlie]

Not saying its law at all, but twice in the last several years I've had interaction with LE who both indicated instruction to interpret a touching magazine as "attached" per 12031(g). One was mere range conversation, but the other was a traffic stop on the highway. Officer saw my cases in the back of the SUV and wanted to inspect. Partially loaded pistol mag was touching another pistol entirely and he let me go with a warning only because the mag was not touching a compatible pistol. Scary stuff, but I'm not going to argue points of law with him under those circumstances.

I had not heard of Clark at the time.

I seem to remember other posts to this effect on these boards as well.

[BigDogatPlay]

While there is a court precedent that a lawyer could use to get the charges dropped, a LEO could still arrest you using his interpretation of the law. Specifically the "attached in any manner to" part.

A LEO could arrest you for the scenario as described. And when the case gets to the DA, most likely, the complaint will be squashed, re: People v. Clark, unless someone is willing to try to break some new ground or the arrestee's defense counsel is clueless. Yes you would be incenvenienced... such is the situation we find ourselves with.

Shells in a sidesaddle is not loaded, end of story. As said there are some who still think it is, but the courts have said it's not. If a LEO arrests for it, he or she has larger issues that need to be dealt with.

Not saying its law at all, but twice in the last several years I've had interaction with LE who both indicated instruction to interpret a touching magazine as "attached" per 12031(g). One was mere range conversation, but the other was a traffic stop on the highway. Officer saw my cases in the back of the SUV and wanted to inspect. Partially loaded pistol mag was touching another pistol entirely and he let me go with a warning only because the mag was not touching a compatible pistol. Scary stuff, but I'm not going to argue points of law with him under those circumstances.

And those were LEOs operating on incorrect interpretations. If you get hassled again in that way, go visit his sergeant after the contact, outline the situation and ask politely if the officer is aware of Clark. The language in the decision is pretty clear, IMO.

[titankeith]

While there is a court precedent that a lawyer could use to get the charges dropped, a LEO could still arrest you using his interpretation of the law. Specifically the "attached in any manner to" part.

It is not worth the time and cost of putting yourself in that situation.

...And ultimatley that's the gist of the whole thing...LEO's that aren't informed can do what they want and arrest you for practicing your 2nd amendment RIGHTS.

[TheKlawMan]

Sorry, it's not a gray area. It's already been ruled on in a court of law. Note the OP's reference to People v. Clark.

Cannonneer is right. I thought it was loaded if attached via a sidesaddle until I was corrected and told to read P. v Clark. Unless it has been overturned it is not loaded if in a sidesaddle, but like antother posted do you need the hassle and expense to prove a point?