Franken-shotgun...

[bollero]

Would it be considered a DD device if you built you own shotgun/frankenshot out of parts to resemble a AA - 12 style.. made ur own frame ..etc..

[BigDogatPlay]

Interesting question... tagged.

[yelohamr]

Crap. I thought it was a thread on what to use on Al Franken.

[stix213]

I have no idea if it would be a DD, but it would certainly be a "zip gun." People are allowed to build AK's, 1911's, and AR-15's themselves and aren't zip guns because those guns qualify for (B) or (A) in the zip gun definition. That's because they are all using an existing design by a licensed manufacturer. Building a shotgun that kinda looks like an AA-12 wouldn't qualify, it would still be your new design. If you wanted to duplicate the AA-12 exactly you would still need to verify that the design is used by a licensed manufacturer or imported per chapter 44 blah blah as below. I do not know if that is even the case for the AA-12 since it isn't being sold to civilians in this country as far as I am aware.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html

(a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable
firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a
firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which
contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or
carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst
trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any
leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol,
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon
of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,
sandclub, sap, or sandbag.
....
(10) As used in this section, a "zip gun" means any weapon or
device which meets all of the following criteria:
(A) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed
pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of
the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(B) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a
manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section
921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations
issued pursuant thereto.
(C) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption
from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181
and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing
with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States
Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(D) It is made or altered to expel a projectile by the force of an
explosion or other form of combustion.

EDIT: added some clarification. basically I think you're screwed

[bollero]

well after looking at a picture of the AA-12 it should be no problem fabricating a frame... like the AA-12. with the Saiga 12 barrel,trunnion, make custom sights.. it can be same barrel length and stock... the AA-12 a buffer system for the bolt like a Ar-15 to absorb the recoil..

[VictorFranko]

Crap. I thought it was a thread on what to use on Al Franken.

Me too! I thought "What a good idea!"

[TangoCharlie]

No, it would not, at least at first.

There are no "features" per se that qualify an otherwise Title I shotgun as being a "non-sporting shotgun", thus a Destructive Device regulated under the National Firearms Act. As long as the design did not violate some other law,(NFA, 922r, etc), then you are free to make it (unlicensed) or manufacture it (licensed). Once it's a "firearm", it could pop up on the ATF radar for review and consideration as a "non-sporting shotgun". If this were to happen, there would be some form of registration scheme for existing units and you would thereafter need additional licensing to manufacture it. If you are simply making a one-off unit for your own use, there is little to no chance of it becoming a DD unless the National Firearm Act itself is amended by Congress to include a features-based definition..

The mechanism by which a Title I shotgun becomes a "non-sporting shotgun" and, by definition, a Title II Destructive Device is simple: The AG makes a formal declaration of make and model of the specific shotgun that is viewed as being "non-sporting". Within the bounds of Title I firearms law, there are no features that define this, only the subjective determination by the AG or his duly appointed.

So, for example, if the Saiga-12 becomes a DD by this mechanism, then all Title I shotguns labeled "Saiga-12" made by Izhmash or any other named manufacturer become NFA DDs regardless of their physical configuration. Saiga-12s that are already NFA firearms on the effective date of the determination are notwithstanding, meaning a Saiga-12 that is an NFA-registered SBS or AOW would remain as such and would not become a DD.

Basically, if you were to cobble together an AA12-like shotgun on your own -and it was neither a machine gun nor SBS, and did it violate 922r- then it would not be a DD until the AG said so.

ETA: I should clarify that this pertains to shotguns that are manufactured domestically, not imported. If a legally-imported shotgun is later determined by ATF's Import Branch to be not "suitable or readily adaptable to sporting purpose" and further imports denied, this is not a declaration that it is "non-sporting". This is similar verbiage from very different laws. In this example, the shotguns already legally imported before the change of mind remain Title I (and go up in value) until the AG acts on them separately through the "non-sporting shotgun" mechanism.

[TangoCharlie]

I have no idea if it would be a DD, but it would certainly be a "zip gun." People are allowed to build AK's, 1911's, and AR-15's themselves and aren't zip guns because those guns qualify for (B) or (A) in the zip gun definition. That's because they are all using an existing design by a licensed manufacturer. Building a shotgun that kinda looks like an AA-12 wouldn't qualify, it would still be your new design. If you wanted to duplicate the AA-12 exactly you would still need to verify that the design is used by a licensed manufacturer or imported per chapter 44 blah blah as below. I do not know if that is even the case for the AA-12 since it isn't being sold to civilians in this country as far as I am aware.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12020.html

EDIT: added some clarification. basically I think you're screwed

For it to be a "Zip Gun", all four sections have to apply:

Neither this hypothetical shotgun, nor a homemade 1911, AR, AK or any other firearm is a "Zip Gun" because of this:

(C) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption
from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181
and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing
with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States
Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.

Chapter 32 deals with Excise Tax paid by manufacturers. No excise tax is due on firearms made by individuals for personal use.

Even a lead pipe with a spring-loaded pin screwed into the basecap designed to fire a 12-gauge round is not a Zip Gun if it was made for personal use. Another ill-conceived and unenforceable California law...

[bohoki]

i'm confused how homebuilds are legal within those 4 specifications

even if it was based on a common design B doesn't seem to be a yes

[TangoCharlie]

i'm confused how homebuilds are legal within those 4 specifications

even if it was based on a common design B doesn't seem to be a yes

Remember, all four conditions must be met. If any one of the four fails, then it cannot be a "Zip Gun"

Section C fails in all such cases because they are made by individuals for personal use. Such builds are exempt from Excise Tax because they are not for commercial resale, so an exemption from Excise Tax is granted and section C is not met. You do not have a "Zip Gun". Basically,if you were to make a homemade firearm for commercial purposes (resale) and did not pay the due Excise Tax, then "C" would be met and you could have a "Zip Gun" if A, B and D were also met.