Saiga 12 - 10 round mag question

[Faded]

Just wanted to verify something... if you want to use a 10 round mag on a Saiga 12 you need to comply with 922r correct?

[QQQ]

Not if it is in its stock "sporting" configuration and the magazine is not detachable.

[Faded]

Not if it is in its stock "sporting" configuration and the magazine is not detachable.

It is completely stock, but I thought if you replaced the 5 round mag to a 10 round that made it no longer "sporting".

[munkeeboi]

Faded, you are right. Once you go over 5 rds you are no longer considered sporting and need to comply with 922r. it doesn't matter if it's a monte carlo stock or non-detachable mag. The 5 rd limit is a sporting requirement on it's own.

[QQQ]

I'm going to stand firm on this one.

Standby for relevant PC.

Update (Quoted from me from another thread- correct me if you can provide support for your claims):

I'm no lawyer, but I have read the law and as far as I see, it would need two of the "evil features" listed below in order to trigger 922r.

But you can look for yourself, too:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...---000-.html#r

has the text of 922r on it (you have to scroll down a ways)

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/925

Has the text for 925(d)(3), which describes in broad terms what's prohibited,

and

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.1.1&idno=27

Which, if you scroll down, defines "Semiautomatic Assault Weapon," which seems to be the general standard that a gun needs to meet in order to NOT be considered a weapon with a "sporting purpose". Note that it reads:
(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of—

(1) A folding or telescoping stock,

(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and

(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.

[munkeeboi]

going by the most recent ATF study, specifically on shotguns, it defines the following as non-sporting features

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

Firearm Features
In reviewing the shotguns used for those activities classified as sporting purposes, the working
group examined State hunting laws, rules, and guidelines for shooting competitions and shooting
organizations; industry advertisements and literature; scholarly and historical publications; and
statistics on participation in the respective shooting sports. Following this review, the working
group determined that certain shotgun features are not particularly suitable or readily adaptable
for sporting purposes. These features include:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.

As they are imported, Saigas have none of these features, and thus defined as sporting. Once you add any one of those "non-sporting" features, you are now subject to 922r.

IANAL, but I think what you quoted in your third link refers to a combination of 2 non-sporting features that would create a Semi-Automatic Assault Weapon. AW classification and 922r are separate things to consider. Once you have one non-sporting feature, it would trigger 922r. A second (third or fourth) non-sporting feature may be possible so long as it does not fit the description of a Semi-Automatic Assault Weapon.

[Faded]

My limited knowledge came from here:

http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html

"Sporting" Purposes
Here's where things get a little tricky. Some rifles, such as the Saiga line, are imported for sporting purposes in a particular configuration. Generally, that means that do not incorporate any of the "evil" features that are typically associated with so-called "semi-automatic assault weapons". Chapter 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations Section 478.11 defines these SAWs. You can read the law, here. Specific examples of these features include:

- High capacity (greater than 10 round for rifles, 5 rounds for shotgun) magazines
- Pistol grip attachment
- Folding buttstock
- Muzzle device/attachment (to include a threaded barrel capable of receiving a device)
- Bayonet lugs
If your rifle or shotgun incorporates those features, it no longer is considered "suitable for sporting purposes".

[n2k]

Has anyone used/verified this 922r calculator for compliance:

Link

[hefedehefe]

I'll try it

[Sicarius]

Yes, 922 kicks in once you put a 10 rounder in.
Kevin

[vintagedude88]

Once you use any mag larger than 5 rounds 922r kick in. This also includes the Surefire 8 rounders.

Its easiest to just convert and then you can forget about 922r problems.

[Gio]

Yup, just easier to convert or stick to 5 round mags. Conversion is not hard to do

[Faded]

So in theory could you use US Mag Body, US Mag Follower, US Mag Plate, and US Muzzle Attachment (Tromix Shark Brake http://store.carolinashooterssupply....x-Shark/Detail) to achieve 922r compliance easily?

[n2k]

How 10 rounders should be used. Damn CA laws.

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