Bean bag or rubber bullet shell?

[Cokebottle]

That is a crock and you know it. Try answering the question, which was how long does it take to top load a round, when the mag is already loaded with lethal. (I keep my 870 with the forearm aft so that I can drop a round in directly through the open ejuction port. All I have to do to fire is slide the forend forward and squeeze the trigger. If that doesn't do the job I have 6 more lethal rounds in the magazine.)

You won't have time.

21ft MINIMUM distance for a trained LEO with a holstered gun (that is locked and loaded).
If the perp is closer than that, he can get a knife into a cop before the cop has time to draw, aim, and fire.

How much distance are you going to have to add to "the zone" to keep that knife (that you may not see) out of your hide when you are fumbling with loading a LL shell, moving the pump forward, aim, fire, then realize that your LL round did not have the desired effect, rack another shell into the chamber and fire your birdshot or buckshot or whatever?

Same is true for those who load up the first 2 rounds as birdshot, 2nd 2 as buck, and the last 2 as slugs.

By the time they realize the birdshot is ineffective (and it is), they're going to be dead before they can chamber the buckshot or slug.


Remember.... No matter how many times you practice your "planned routine", it is going to fall apart under duress.
You are going to be caught off guard, whether asleep, watching TV, or in the shower.
Adrenalin is going to be shooting through your brain. You fine motor functions are going to be shot. Your hands are going to be shaking. Your body is going to be in a "fight or flight" mode, and the presence of loved ones is going to make that decision for you.

[blakdawg]

It seems to me that in non-LEO hands, this ammo is only useful in the incredibly tiny slice of encounters where deadly force is legally permissible but morally unacceptable/disfavored.

I guess that would make sense if you've got special circumstances where you think you're in danger of a lethal attack from a person you really would prefer not to kill - e.g., a family member with mental illness.

I think it would be interesting to play with the beanbag/rubber rounds at a range - it'd be interesting to see what they'd do to a phonebook or a 2L bottle of water or whatever.

Unless you've got a really unusual situation for defense, though, I think they're just an attempt to avoid thinking about the ugly self-defense question: are you ready to take someone else's life to save your own, or your family member's?

I think it'd make more sense to use a Taser.

Here's another way to look at it: if you can use a "less lethal" round in a given situation, you could also use a .22LR, or even one of those "silent" .22LR primer-only rounds. Those will also cause some pain/damage, but aren't as lethal as a traditional JHP in a serious caliber or a shotgun round. Don't think your circumstances would justify the use of a .22? Then they won't justify the use of a "less lethal" 12 ga round, either.

[FatalKitty]

It seems to me that in non-LEO hands, this ammo is only useful in the incredibly tiny slice of encounters where deadly force is legally permissible but morally unacceptable/disfavored.

I could see this - killing is not fun, it will ruin your life as well as people around you... BUT it is certainly better than the alternative of being dead.

I guess that would make sense if you've got special circumstances where you think you're in danger of a lethal attack from a person you really would prefer not to kill - e.g., a family member with mental illness.

I think it would be interesting to play with the beanbag/rubber rounds at a range - it'd be interesting to see what they'd do to a phonebook or a 2L bottle of water or whatever.

Not as fun as you might think - it's terribly expensive.. and the rounds are SO incredible inconsistent that half the time won't even be able to hit a coke bottle sized target at any distance

Unless you've got a really unusual situation for defense, though, I think they're just an attempt to avoid thinking about the ugly self-defense question: are you ready to take someone else's life to save your own, or your family member's?

I think it'd make more sense to use a Taser.

A taser is an incredible effective tool - however, similar to LL rounds... it is dependent on the subject and where/how you can hit them and hope they aren't wearing a leather jacket

Here's another way to look at it: if you can use a "less lethal" round in a given situation, you could also use a .22LR, or even one of those "silent" .22LR primer-only rounds. Those will also cause some pain/damage, but aren't as lethal as a traditional JHP in a serious caliber or a shotgun round. Don't think your circumstances would justify the use of a .22? Then they won't justify the use of a "less lethal" 12 ga round, either.

I can't even think of what to say. Everyone needs to get the "jury" out of your head... it has no place in your thoughts as you are defending your life.

[Cokebottle]

and the rounds are SO incredible inconsistent that half the time won't even be able to hit a coke bottle sized target at any distance

Oh come on.... I'm 6'3" 200lbs! Who can't hit that?

[blakdawg]

I can't even think of what to say. Everyone needs to get the "jury" out of your head... it has no place in your thoughts as you are defending your life.

My point was not that a .22LR (or the primer-only .22's) are great self-defense options, but that people shouldn't be using a "less lethal" round in a circumstance where they wouldn't use a .22LR.

I read the OP to be essentially asking "how can I shoot someone without really shooting them?"

I don't see a place for "less lethal" ammo in my self-defense plans, and have a hard time seeing where it makes sense in a self-defense context.

[FatalKitty]

Sorry, didn't mean that I was responding directly to your post - just what you were talking about when everyone says "but but lawyers won't hate mes as much ifns I use da less lethal!?"

[TheKlawMan]

I can go from cruiser safe to slug changeover and shot on target at 50 yards in less than the time it'll take you to **** your pants... that's not the point.
when there is someone that is trying to hurt you (running at you with a knife, or pointing a gun at you)
you will NOT be able to do what you need to do. i don't care how many times you've done this in your bedroom as practice.

if you've got lethal ammo in the gun already, why the **** are you going to take the time to put a LESS lethal round in there, when you KNOW that the only reason you are firing that gun is to save your own life.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD
less lethal is for TRAINED LAW ENFORCEMENT PROFESSIONALS - not armchair commandos who think their house is a fortress.

I've kicked down many doors where the people inside thought they had their **** together and they did not, and they had ammo in the chamber with my name on it.

Are you saying that you are a LEO or that you have been is combat?

Kicking in doors is entirely different that HD. If you don't understand that there is no point. As for what I can do and how long it takes, you haven't a **** clue. I will ask you once again now long does it take me to top load a round given the manner in which I keep my 870.

[TheKlawMan]

You have a tube mag full of ammo that will come into the chamber at increasing levels of lethality - what do you do when an imminent threat appears? remember, but you're own words - you must be in fear of imminent danger of life/limb - so what do you do, tell the BG to hold on a sec while you rack your shotgun 3 or 4 times with your finger off the trigger to activate the slidelock? or do you just start pumping lead into the guy hoping your first rounds do enough damage to stop him from firing back at you, moving, or coming into contact with you long enough to end up shooting him with something that will save your life?

Now I see where you have it all wrong. If you read what I wrote, I keep my 870's magazine full of lethal shells with the rack back and the action open. This permits me to bring it into battery two different ways. I can top load the seventh round and shove the forestock to the front. The other is pump it forward, back to strip a round from the mag, and forward to chamber that rouund.

[TheKlawMan]

You won't have time.

21ft MINIMUM distance for a trained LEO with a holstered gun (that is locked and loaded).
If the perp is closer than that, he can get a knife into a cop before the cop has time to draw, aim, and fire.

How much distance are you going to have to add to "the zone" to keep that knife (that you may not see) out of your hide when you are fumbling with loading a LL shell, moving the pump forward, aim, fire, then realize that your LL round did not have the desired effect, rack another shell into the chamber and fire your birdshot or buckshot or whatever?

Same is true for those who load up the first 2 rounds as birdshot, 2nd 2 as buck, and the last 2 as slugs.

By the time they realize the birdshot is ineffective (and it is), they're going to be dead before they can chamber the buckshot or slug.


Remember.... No matter how many times you practice your "planned routine", it is going to fall apart under duress.
You are going to be caught off guard, whether asleep, watching TV, or in the shower.
Adrenalin is going to be shooting through your brain. You fine motor functions are going to be shot. Your hands are going to be shaking. Your body is going to be in a "fight or flight" mode, and the presence of loved ones is going to make that decision for you.

Let us see. I again ask you how long it takes for me to top load that seventh round and again you evade the point. You also failed to consider that we the bg in this scenario has to make his way up 14 steps to even get to the top of the landing and then cross it to get to me. Before he even gets near the bottom of the lanidng, that top round is chambered and I am in battery.

You are correct about flight or fight. I have experienced it and dealt with it a few times.

[FatalKitty]

Are you saying that you are a LEO or that you have been is combat?

Kicking in doors is entirely different that HD. If you don't understand that there is no point. As for what I can do and how long it takes, you haven't a **** clue. I will ask you once again now long does it take me to top load a round given the manner in which I keep my 870.

you've gone and missed what i was saying.
(Marine btw, no longer in service)

These guys had all the time in the world, expecting us to break in and take them down and we still ****ed 'em up. somehow, you think that you're going to be able to be roused from sleep by a screaming wife/girlfriend/child, grab a shotgun that isn't loaded (no round in chamber) and then decided weather or not to load a lethal or less lethal round, all the while hoping nobody notices you? it's not realistic man... you WILL not be able to make that clear decision in a split second and act on it under extreme stress and fear (because remember, you must be in FEAR of your life)

[John Browning]

There are no legal benefits to using a less-lethal round in California. There is no distinction between a load of rubber buck and a load of #4 buck.

There are no tactical benefits to using a less-lethal round unless you live in a situation where you're sure over-penetration worries cannot be overcome with some sound planning. There are multiple tactical disadvantages, unless you have someone backing you up with lethal force.

If I had to find myself in the position where I am in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death, I don't see any advantages that would lead to me using a less-lethal round. You don't get warning shots (that will land you in jail), and at the rate these things have shown themselves to unfold you may only get one shot. The whole idea of a running gunfight with round #1 being this, #2 is that, #3 is this and so on, is absurd.

The simpler the plan, the more likely it is to succeed under stress. One gun and one load will lead to a better shot at 100 percent survival for you and your family.

Added: I forgot to also point out that when you interject a less-lethal round into the situation, you're also adding other kinds of problems. Someone might think a shot is questionable and take it thinking they don't have to worry about penetration into the next room, and they didn't know that somehow a slug or buck or whatever is in the chamber instead of their less-lethal. KISS, it works.

[Cokebottle]

Let us see. I again ask you how long it takes for me to top load that seventh round and again you evade the point.

I'm not evading the point because I don't know how long it will take you.
You have to do several things:

Assess whether you feel the intruder is armed or not.
Make the decision whether to use a "lethal" round or take your chances with less than lethal.
Load the action and slide the pump forward, or
Slide the pump forward, then operate it again.

That time is going to be a lot longer than it's going to take a trained LEO to unholster his gun and bring it to bear on the target.
21ft is nowhere NEAR enough time.... and some LEO trainers are now pushing that 21ft out to 30ft.
That's going to cover anywhere inside of my condo where I have a clear shot.

And if you do use the less-than-lethal round and it's a "bad shoot", the consequences will be no different than if you had used a legal round.

You also failed to consider that we the bg in this scenario has to make his way up 14 steps to even get to the top of the landing and then cross it to get to me. Before he even gets near the bottom of the lanidng, that top round is chambered and I am in battery.

If he is armed with a gun, he doesn't have to take those 14 steps and cross that landing, and if his gun is tucked into his waistband or in his hoodie, you won't know it until he draws.
Meanwhile, you're ^%$%ing around loading your shotgun.
If he's armed with anything more lethal than a banana, you're dead.

I just measured from the bottom of my stairs to the back of the landing.
22ft.
From there, I have an additional 5ft that I can back up before I am standing in the bathtub against the back wall.
The other direction, there is another 5 ft from the base of the stairs to my front door.

This is also one of three "safe" directions that I can fire without posing a risk to my neighbors from the round penetrating a wall:
1 - Top of the stairs to the bottom, "missed" shot penetrating the front door and hitting the concrete outside.
2 - Bottom of the stairs to the top of the stairs. Missed shot would penetrate the back wall at an upward angle and come down in the parking lot behind me.
3 - Front wall toward the back wall downstairs. Missed shot would penetrate the glass door, then hit either a steel cabinet, or a wooden fence. Wooden fence is backed by a cinderblock wall. Parking lot and commercial building behind that. The portion of the commercial building that would be hit would be the elevator shaft. This would not be a good option during a daytime shoot.

If 2 or 3 are the directions that I am shooting, it means that I have walked in and surprised an intruder. Not a good situation for either of us.


Technically, I could also fire back to front because the unit across from me is currently vacant.

[Cokebottle]

There are multiple tactical disadvantages, unless you have someone backing you up with lethal force.

This is an important point.

When LEO are using "less than lethal" equipment, they are fully backed up by at least one other person armed with lethal equipment and they will not hesitate to use it if LTL shows to be ineffective.

[TheKlawMan]

you've gone and missed what i was saying.
(Marine btw, no longer in service)

These guys had all the time in the world, expecting us to break in and take them down and we still ****ed 'em up. somehow, you think that you're going to be able to be roused from sleep by a screaming wife/girlfriend/child, grab a shotgun that isn't loaded (no round in chamber) and then decided weather or not to load a lethal or less lethal round, all the while hoping nobody notices you? it's not realistic man... you WILL not be able to make that clear decision in a split second and act on it under extreme stress and fear (because remember, you must be in FEAR of your life)

For the 4th time you evaded answering how long it takes to top load round. When I was a Marine in Nam we learned to deal with making decisons under extreme stress. As for there being nothing chambered, again take a look at what I wrote. The mag is full and the rack is back. I only have to grab the gun and slide the forestock forward and it is locked and loaded. Only if time permits do I consider using a less lethal. Also I would expect the dog's howling to waken me, not the wife.

[TheKlawMan]

This is an important point.

When LEO are using "less than lethal" equipment, they are fully backed up by at least one other person armed with lethal equipment and they will not hesitate to use it if LTL shows to be ineffective.

There you go confusing the issue, again. Didn't you already say that there is not such thing as "less than lethal" ammunition but some is merely less lethal. Actually, I believe someone said that if a LEO is armed with a sg it is preferred that his partner backs him up with a rifle in case they encounter someone in body armour. As for what LEOs are doing, I submit that anyone who thinks that they are going to be able to perform as well as a squad of professionals is in lala land, but in this situation I have lethal in the tube ready to go.

Are you sure you aren't talking about backing up a LEO aremed with a sg laoded with nothing buy LL? At the most I am taling about mine being loaded with nothing but lethal, with the possible exceptiion of the first in the tube.

Again, I have told you that I don't even load a less lethal unless the circumstances permit and then the first round out of the magazine will stop them cold if the less lethal doesn't do the trick. Why do you have to twist the facts to make an argument?