Saiga 12 CA Legal Version possible?

[LECTRIKHED]

I have been thinking a lot about this recently. The Saiga 12 shotgun is not listed. The only thing that makes it illegal is its magazine. The shotgun should easily modified into a CA version. We could even send it into the DOJ for approval. Here is what we need done to it before it enters CA.

1. Fixed magazine. AK Magazine lock and glue.
2. 10 round magazine. This could be one of the AK type magazines being made by a member that are easy to load. Prefferably I would like one where the shells can be inserted from the rear, and a way to depress the spring.

This would make a it perfectly legal. The Saiga 12 is clearly not an AK-47, and is not a rifle. Can someone with knowledge of AK magazine construction start on this one. I would love to have a Saiga 12. There are not many shotguns that can be compact and have a 10 round capacity.

[hybridatsun350]

A 10 round mag for a Saiga is huge. I wouldn't exactly call it compact, haha.

[bwiese]

I am leery of fixed magazine conversions of Saiga 12s.

If you read the penal code definition of shotgun-based AW, any semiauto shotgun w/a detachable mag is an AW. By contrast, a semiauto rifle with detachable mag is legal unless and until evil features are added. The rifle AW laws are structured differently than the shotgun AW laws, and people forget that.

The upshot of this is that repairs/unjams of fixed Saiga 12s could be legally problematic w/regular fixed mag.

I do guess the BB mag release could be used, since that does not create a detachable mag as per regulatory definition.

I guess I don't see the real 'gain' here since there are a ton of good/better semiauto shotguns with tube mags w/plenty of capacity.

[Quiet]

The Saiga-12 factory standard capacity magazine is 5. They also make a 2 round magazine for hunting and a high capacity 8 round magazine. In order to have a 10 round magazine, you will have to coble something together.

Yes, you could fix the magazine in order to be CA legal. But, it'll take some work to modify one out of state prior to having it shipped to a CA FFL.

[LECTRIKHED]

I figure something like the Vulcan method where it is attached and epoxied in place. What I appreciate about the Saiga 12 is the price. Plus it looks cool. I don't have the resources to do this, but if there is an out of state company, that would be great. I bet it could even get DOJ approval.

[bwiese]

I bet it could even get DOJ approval.

Don't expect anything relating to off-list rifles (or shotguns) to get approval esp with all the furor of last year.

Frankly I don't think even Vulcan or Bushmaster could get approval today. They wanna shut down this whole thing.

[peepshowal]

The Saiga-12 factory standard capacity magazine is 5. They also make a 2 round magazine for hunting and a high capacity 8 round magazine. In order to have a 10 round magazine, you will have to coble something together.

While it's not a Saiga factory mag, there are mags like this one available from Copes. http://www.copesdist.com/ak47.htm




US made 10 round magazine for the Saiga-12 shotgun. This counts as 3 US made parts and is marked "USA" on the body, follower and floor plate. It is made from glass filled Nylon for the utmost in strength. It holds 10 rounds with a little extra space so to make it easier to seat in gun when full. These now include our new upgraded spring steel feed lips. Check your local laws before ordering.

AGP Arms Saiga-12 10 Round MagazineQty:Price: $59.99ea

[AJAX22]

If you can figure out how to get one, I'll be first on the list with cash in hand scrambling to buy one.

I don't care if the mag is pinned, 10 rounds of 12 gauge in a compact package is a dooozy.

[paradox]

I present the knoxx-saiga12:

[bwiese]

Thank you, Paradox for bringing this up again.

I present the knoxx-saiga12:

That's a nice firearm. It's certainly not a shotgun and not an AW...

12020 (c) (21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or
redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed
or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single
projectile for each pull of the trigger.

Note my underlining of the phrase, and the bolding of 'and'...

edited after rethinking - whee!!

This is similar to the 1919A1 or 50BMG MaDeuce not being AWs because they aren't rifles: these guns were not designed to be shoulder fired and their primary incarnations were pintle- or tripod- mounted.

This gun cannot be regarded as 'intended to be fired from the shoulder' regardless of the prior design intent: note the very important word "and" prefacing "intended to be fired..." phrase - meaning that this factor must be included to determine whether or not the firearm is indeed a shotgun.

[The DOJ letter saying the 1919's rear-mounted pistol grip is not a pistol grip - and 1919s aren't AWs because grip emerges from the rear of the gun - is not really relevant, as it could still be a full pistol grip per 11 CCR 5469(d). The 1919 semiautos are simply not rifles, which throws them out of consideration for Calif AW laws, which solely deal with pistols, rifles and shotguns.]

If this were a US made, say, a semiauto version of the Mossberg 500 "Cruiser"-style PG shotgun, sold in that configuration (like that "JIC-in-a-tube" version), it would clearly not be a CA assault weapon as it was sold and therefore designed not to be a shotgun (as per shoulder-fired definition above). RAAC probablty could not ship a PG-only semiauto into US for commercial sales due to 922(r) stuff.

I will note that the "...as used in this section..." phrasing above is moot for rifle & shotgun definitions, because these 12020 defintions are not redefined elsewhere. These definitions existed before the AW laws came into being: there could, had the legislature chosen to do so (and with 17+ years of opportunity), have other alternate definitions of pistol, rifle and shotgun created expressly for the AW section. I don't think DOJ could add a regulatory definition in 5469 to define these, either, given this conflict.

Ladies & gentleman, we have found our Saiga 12 exemption.

This firearm as depicted above is not a shotgun.

It thus is not an assault weapon per any 12276.1 definition.

It can have a detachable magazine and a pistol grip.

US-mfgd 922(r) 'compliance' parts likely have to be added - unsure of source of these, though a Knoxx stock and US-mfg mag would help.

[1stLineGear]

Very nice, now who is going to be the guinea pig? This would be a great gun to have.

"Ladies & gentleman, we have found our Saiga 12 exemption.

This firearm as depicted above is not a shotgun.

It thus is not an assault weapon per any 12276.1 definition.

It can have a detachable magazine and a pistol grip."

[bwiese]

"Ladies & gentleman, we have found our Saiga 12 exemption.

This firearm as depicted above is not a shotgun.

It thus is not an assault weapon per any 12276.1 definition.

It can have a detachable magazine and a pistol grip."

I will note that Kalashnikov USA Saigas should be avoided - "named" issues.

Stick to EAA or RAAC guns.

[AJAX22]

Are any Dealers willing to do a transfer on one? I'll pony up. I'm willing to make a road trip out of it.

[kurt_r]

This is the one I want to build (I don't know why, but I want it!):

The shoulder stock would have to be removed before shipping into CA, and either shipped seperately or discarded. I know there are instructions for moving the trigger foreward and installing an AK pistol grip somewhere on the net, I'll have to find them again.
If it is not legally a shotgun (intended to be fired from the shoulder), it can't be classified as an "assault weapon" in this configuration.

[bwiese]

Remember that 922(r) will likely need to be complied with (the 10 or less key foreign parts game) before attempting this.