What does "converted Saiga 12" mean?

[audihenry]

Hey guys,

I hear a lot of you talking about converting Saiga 12s, but what do you mean aside from a mag lock in the case of an evil feature?

Thanks!

[professorhard]

It's when you move the FCG forward and install a pistol grip.

[Cokebottle]

Yup.
If the conversion is done properly, it costs around $100 to DIY.
The maglock is needed on the stock S12 because it's a semi-auto. The conversion transforms it into the "correct" AK form factor, and also requires the addition of 922(r) compliance parts.

[audihenry]

The maglock is for evil features, not that it's a semi auto, correct?

Second, when you say the FCG, do you mean the trigger guard and everything else inside is moved forward?? That seems like quite a hassle. Are new holes drilled on the side of the receiver?

[Cokebottle]

The maglock is for evil features, not that it's a semi auto, correct?

Don't confuse rifle AW laws with shotgun AW laws... they are different.
All Semi-automatic shotguns must have a fixed magazine. In addition, the restrictions on evil features is different.

Example, a semi-auto-fixed-mag shotgun can have either a (folding/telescoping stock), or a (pistol grip, thumbhole stock, vertical forward grip), but it cannot have items from both groups.
Remember... a pump-action is not a semi-auto, so you're good to go making a Mossy 500 look like an AR15.

OTOH, there is no 30" minimum as there is for rifles. As long as it meets the SBS minimum of 26" or more, it's good to go.

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

Second, when you say the FCG, do you mean the trigger guard and everything else inside is moved forward?? That seems like quite a hassle. Are new holes drilled on the side of the receiver?

The holes for the trigger and hammer are already there. You'll want to plug the original holes that you leave vacant.
Moving the TG takes a bit of drilling, but it's really not a big deal.

[audihenry]

Thanks man, really appreciate it. This explains the CA market price vs. the rest of the U.S. price

[novabrian]

Hey guys,

I hear a lot of you talking about converting Saiga 12s, but what do you mean aside from a mag lock in the case of an evil feature?

Thanks!

It means Awesome!!!!

[audihenry]

Don't confuse rifle AW laws with shotgun AW laws... they are different.
All Semi-automatic shotguns must have a fixed magazine. In addition, the restrictions on evil features is different.

Example, a semi-auto-fixed-mag shotgun can have either a (folding/telescoping stock), or a (pistol grip, thumbhole stock, vertical forward grip), but it cannot have items from both groups.
Remember... a pump-action is not a semi-auto, so you're good to go making a Mossy 500 look like an AR15.

OTOH, there is no 30" minimum as there is for rifles. As long as it meets the SBS minimum of 26" or more, it's good to go.

http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

The holes for the trigger and hammer are already there. You'll want to plug the original holes that you leave vacant.
Moving the TG takes a bit of drilling, but it's really not a big deal.

Let me ask one more thing: assuming one sticks with the standard Saiga stock, the only things left to do are mag lock and 922 compliance, correct?

Also, can one convert the Saiga back and forth between the two configurations you've outlined (without overlap) like you could on a Mossy (shoulder or pistol grip), or is it choosing one or the other and being stuck with it for the life of the shotgun?

[Cokebottle]

Let me ask one more thing: assuming one sticks with the standard Saiga stock, the only things left to do are mag lock and 922 compliance, correct?

If you are not adding a pistol grip or otherwise making the rifle "non-sporting", then there are no 922(r) issues. The mag lock is always required for California.

Also, can one convert the Saiga back and forth between the two configurations you've outlined (without overlap) like you could on a Mossy (shoulder or pistol grip), or is it choosing one or the other and being stuck with it for the life of the shotgun?

Meh... like the x39, I'm not sure how comfortable it would be firing the forward trigger without the PG. Your grip would become a box... the ergos would be horrible.
The main difference is with the mossy, you could go between PG only either via a folder or removing the stock completely, but with the Saiga, you can't have the PG and a folder.
IF the OAL is over 26" from the muzzle brake to the end of the receiver (and I think it might be a little short), then you could theoretically completely remove the stock and run it PG-only, for say a HD situation.
Specs show it as being available with either a 19" or 24" barrel, with an OAL of 41" or 45".
The bolt face sits an inch or more behind the leading edge of the receiver... with the 24" barrel you'd obviously be okay on OAL, but the 19" barrel may be too short to run in "cruiser" mode. I'd hit up someone on the forum who has one and ask them to measure from the muzzle to the rear of the receiver.

Keep in mind that the rear trunnion has a tang on top that secures the buttstock and sticks out an inch or two from the rear of the receiver. That tang could cause injury if the recoil forces the rear of the receiver into your body. What I'd probably do is fabricate a block of wood (or use a Romy AK47 buttstock from one of the $10 Centerfire furniture sets) and cut it and shape it into a rounded butt to ensure that the OAL is >26".... then seal with poly, heavily primer, and paint it flat black. The Romy kit includes a PG as well, but for 922(r) reasons, I'd stick with a US-made Tapco SAW grip.


Here's a decent reference for Saiga:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/

Keep in mind that users may not be California-friendly, and most likely not up on CA laws.

[Cokebottle]

If you really want the option of swapping between the OEM stock and a PG, I would fabricate my own PG stock that replaces the OEM stock. You'd still have 922(r) to worry about, and I don't think you can get a US-made FCG that mounts in the factory location, but there are other ways to get the 922(r) parts such as the gas piston, foregrip, and magazines.

[audihenry]

Thanks a lot for that information Rich, very helpful!

[supermario]

Here is a saiga unconverted and converted

[BVamp]

Ill try to answer some of these questions as well, just for clarity. Some have already been answered, some havent, so Im not picking and choosing, and will just answer them all.


converted - as was stated, the conversion is putting the FCG back into its original position, and adding a pistol grip, moving the trigger guard forward, and a regular AK stock. adding an additional US part (such as a Chaos rail system or gas tappet piston) brings you up to 922r compliance for federal regulation. there are no NEW holes made for the FCG, however some are left over from the US style configuration, and you will usually need to add a PG nut hole on the shotguns.

maglock - again, stated already, but the saiga12's are SUPPOSED to have this installed PRIOR to entry into the state, unless the destination is to a LE armory, and is going into california for duty use. adding a maglock and the additional paperwork and such, one of my company's manufacture, adds 75$ to the base cost of the guns we sell for CA buyers.


OAL - my company demo gun i have here measures approx. 29 1/2" from muzzle to rearmost point, the rear tang off the rear trunion. it is a factory threaded 19" BBL model. we also sell a 24" model, and there are some guns that were rerouted from the german market to the US when the laws changed there recently, which I believe are 22" guns, and have the importer's mark, "russian american armory company" stamped on the bottom of the receiver, just forward of the magazine well. My personal saiga12 has a factory cut muzzle, which is unthreaded and measures 18.5" from the breech face. I would verify the actual measurement of it overall, but it is currently on loan to Mr Bill Akins, for a project he is working on, which is destined to turn some heads at the range when he is done.


standard buttstock and 922r compliance - if you leave the saiga12 in its factory configuration, the gun is already 922R compliant. If you add a US made ten round magazine, you will need to add one US part, the easiest of which is the gas tappet/piston puck. again, the maglock is supposed to be installed prior to entering the state regardless of what configuration you have the gun in. In some states, CA included, you cannot have a shotgun mag beyond ten rounds, so no 12 rounders or drums for you guys, sorry. There will be a ten round minidrum made in steel coming out eventually from CHAOS, which may be legal in california. Cameron designed it specifically with duty use in mind, as he does with all of his products.

going "back and forth" - one could do this theoretically, if one were to have the correct US parts count, by using tapco's intrafuse stock system which is a drop in PG configuration that does not require you to move the FCG forward. you WILL need to count your US parts when using this stock setup, just like you would have to do for a proper conversion. note, going this route is techincally considered "parts swapping" and is not actually converting the gun.



Ill try to continue to help answer or verify saiga related questions on this forum, and apologize for my delayed response here.

Cadiz Gun Works is the sole Warranty provider in the US for RAAC's Saiga line.