Does it matter which slug or buckshot?

[k1dude]

But they won't be acting exactly like a slug.
They will be making 9 separate wound channels; close together or not close together, but 9 separate wound channels nonetheless.

That your shotgun instructors keep rifles by their bedside contributes nothing to why you should want (or not want) a tight patterning shotgun.

I never said using a shotgun with 00 Buck for home defense isn't an acceptable choice. I said using standard 00 Buck rather than tight patterning Federal Flite Control 00 Buck is a better choice for most except law enforcement who may be forced to take a LONG shot. Any civilian taking a 35 yard shotgun shot outside is likely going to wind up in jail. Proving self defense due to an imminent threat to your life is going to be difficult.

At 3 to 5 yards, you still have a very tight pattern even with standard 00 Buck. If you do have to take a 10 yard shot because you live in a mansion, a 6 to 8 inch spread is just about ideal. No spread at all is not ideal. You might as well use a rifle which gives you the advantage of more firepower and very fast reloads, even with 10 rounders.

What shotgun instructors keep bedside is indeed apropos. A weapon's ability to stop isn't only based on the weapon itself, but also the ammo used. The fact that shotgun instructors personally choose a rifle with frangible or self defense loads over a shotgun with standard or Flite Control loads is very telling. The gun/ammo choice you're advocating isn't one that even the top shotgun instructors nationwide would choose to use.

[k1dude]

I'd like to see your bullet button reload in 2 seconds. And why are you in the shotgun forum extolling the virtues of carbines?

Who said I was using a bullet button? Who said you need to use a bullet button? If you're using a bullet button on your home defense carbine, you aren't very well informed about California law.

Who said a shotgun wasn't a good choice? A shotgun with standard 00 Buck is a good choice. A shotgun with #1 Buck is an even better choice.

I'm questioning the choice of shotgun ammo.

[NapalmCheese]

I never said using a shotgun with 00 Buck for home defense isn't an acceptable choice. I said using standard 00 Buck rather than tight patterning Federal Flite Control 00 Buck is a better choice for most except law enforcement who may be forced to take a LONG shot. Any civilian taking a 35 yard shotgun shot outside is likely going to wind up in jail. Proving self defense due to an imminent threat to your life is going to be difficult.

Not really what we are arguing, but you're still wrong.

At 3 to 5 yards, you still have a very tight pattern even with standard 00 Buck. If you do have to take a 10 yard shot because you live in a mansion, a 6 to 8 inch spread is just about ideal. No spread at all is not ideal. You might as well use a rifle which gives you the advantage of more firepower and very fast reloads, even with 10 rounders.

No spread at all is just as ideal as 'a little bit of spread'. You have to aim no matter what. Your aim has to put rounds into a 12x18 target (generally speaking) no matter what. The benefit of the shotgun is that each time you pull the trigger and hit your target, you're putting 9 holes into it. If you miss, you're putting 9 holes (from shot you are 100% accountable for) into whatever is behind your target.

What shotgun instructors keep bedside is indeed apropos. A weapon's ability to stop isn't only based on the weapon itself, but also the ammo used. The fact that shotgun instructors personally choose a rifle with frangible or self defense loads over a shotgun with standard or Flite Control loads is very telling. The gun/ammo choice you're advocating isn't one that even the top shotgun instructors nationwide would choose to use.

No, it is not apropos. It is the opposite of apropos. If you asked every defensive instructor alive in this day what they keep as their home defense weapon, and every single one of them said "something other than a shotgun" it still wouldn't make a difference as to whether or not you should use the tightest patterning buckshot round available to you. If you asked every single shotgun instructor alive today what round they would keep loaded in a shotgun for defensive purposes you might get useful data.

[k1dude]

In almost every tactical shotgun class I've taken, the issue of which ammo has come up. In almost every instance a participant has asked what about Federal Flite Control. The standard response from the instructors has always been "Are you law enforcement? If not, then there are better choices." They explain the pro's and con's of a tight pattern and the difference between home defense and what LEO's encounter. It's not only my opinion. It's being taught as well.

But from the looks of it, you're experience and knowledge are far better than theirs. I bow to your superior intellect and actual battle experience.

[NapalmCheese]

I bow to your superior intellect and actual battle experience.

That's all I ask.

[Rottentofu]

I appreciate all the data everyone, I find the data very helpful in choosing my shotgun HD ammo. But please keep this discussion friendly. Thanks everyone!

[ScottsBad]

Not if the 9 pellets are still acting exactly like a slug at 5 yards. Then you might as well be using a slug.

MAJOR drawbacks of a shotgun include it's limited capacity and SLOW reloads. You have neither of those deficiencies with an 11 round mag loaded semi-auto rifle. You also have the benefit of increased rates of fire and comparatively little recoil.

Every tactical shotgun class I've ever taken over the decades, I've always made it a point to ask my instructors what long gun they kept bedside. It has ALWAYS been a semi-auto rifle (AR) - without exception.

11 or 31 is better than 4 or 6 or 8. A 10 round reload in 2 seconds is better than a 5 round reload in 10 seconds.

I prefer a carbine first, but also keep pump shotguns around. That said, I think the shotgun can be very effective in the right circumstances.

[esy]

I don't know all agencies' policies, but mine does not allow us to use 00buck from further than 15yds out. Granted that even at about 25yds out, the patterning with FliteControl is still better than most at 10yds. Patterning at even 50yds is spectacular with the Federal FliteControl.

With proper training, the issue of "not having to aim" is moot. The idea that you don't have to aim is ridiculous, IMO. One has to aim a bedside AR just as much as you have to aim a bedside shotgun. One should never ever change how they utilize their firearm outside of how they have trained.

One of my Sergeants always says, "You train the way you play."

So, aim your shotgun. It's ridiculous not to. I can put two rounds downrange on 8" steel plates from 10yds out in about 1.5 seconds from a high ready. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but with enough repetitions, acquiring a proper sight picture; it can be easily attained in about a day's worth of training.

As far as round selection, I use 00buck at home. Right now I have a bunch of Winchester 00buck that I'm burning through, but I generally use FliteControl which my department also uses.

[Socalman]

My primary HD weapon is a shotgun loaded with Federal low recoil #1 buck with Flight Control wad. These buckshot loads are kind of hard to find, usually in specialty ammo retailers like SGA ammo, etc.

One day I decided to test some different buck for HD use. I shot a lot of different brands, cheap to expensive. At even relative close defensive ranges there were pretty big differences brand and load to brand and load.

Although a few of the less expensive brands of 00 buck delivered decent results, most were pretty poor.

When I got around to the Federal low recoil #1 buck with flight control, a guy a few lanes over walked up and asked if I had switched to testing slugs, I said no and showed him the box. His next question was, "where can I buy some?"

There are a few other brands and a few other Federal with the FCW that pattern just as well, Hornaday makes a few, but these just seem to have the right balance for HD use.

This thread could have ended with this post! Nothing more needs to be added.