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Hi all:
I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor and I spend a lot of time instructing first time shooters, Boy Scouts specifically, how to shoot safely and how to be able to hit some clays their first time ever shooting. I am also part of the Ventura County BSA Council Shooting Sports Committee. We recently had our first Family Shoot Day up at our Boy Scout Camp in Lockwood Valley where we trained over two hundred Scouts, their siblings and parents how to safely shoot shotguns, many of them, for the first time. The event was a fun, frantic and long day and our instructor team as well as the Scouts and families had a great time. We use regular and Youth Compact sized Remington 1187s. The challenge we continue to encounter is that we often have Boy Scouts who have just bridged from Webelos/Cub Scouts into Boy Scouts and the smaller Scouts, who often amaze me at how small they are, seriously, some of these kids must be 60lbs and stand under three feet, have a hard time holding up even a Youth Compact sized shotgun. We have pretty conservative and refined safety procedures requiring one instructor with each shooter. In between shots, the receiver is open, the instructor then loads a single round for them and closes the receiver, they take a single shot, then alternate with the other shooter(s) as they someday will when shooting Trap or Skeet. At no time does a Scout hold a loaded shotgun without an instructor more than a foot away from them. We are fanatics on trigger discipline and muzzle control. No kid gets onto the range without hearing the Four Rules, reciting at least one of them in Q&A for their group. Our safety record speaks for itself, we have never had an ND or accident.
These little guys do fine with the .22 rifles in the Rifle Shooting program because the rifles are shot from benches and sandbags so the size and strength of the scout isn't a factor. With shotgun though, we continually run into issues where the smaller Scouts lack the body strength to even hold up a 6.5lb, Compact length shotgun, they seem to have little to no upper body strength. It is difficult to instruct first in safety, then about technique when the Scout is struggling even hold up the shotgun to their cheek and sight down the barrel. Keep in mind too that these are the Youth Compact sized 1187s so they are not very long and not very heavy at 6.5lbs. At our last event, we had one scout who ended up lightly dropping the muzzle of the already empty shotgun onto the concrete pad (no damage to the shotgun muzzle), after he had taken his shot, and we had one boy who was struggling so much with the weight and length that he was wavering with the muzzle. It never became a safety issue because the instructor was right next to him and was able to assist and help the boy steady the shotgun. Keep in mind that we launch from a stationary, non-oscillating trap machine at about 12 yards so the clay is always in the same spot and the boys don't have to aim from side to side, just slowly and smoothly follow the clay up, hopefully shooting it as it ascends.
Here are my questions:
1. From a safety standpoint, in your opinion, should we just kick these little guys off of the range if they are not strong enough to hold the shotgun up and shoot it? I have done this twice so far, but it breaks my heart because these are our future shooters, we want them to have a great first experience shooting a shotgun, etc. The problem is usually with the forearm grip, they overextend it and fatigue too quickly but sometimes it is just that they lack the strength because they are so damn small. Some of these kids need some growth hormones.
2. A few of the instructors have stood right next to the boys and assisted them in lifting the shotgun, as they shoot, mainly helping them to lift the forearm up, making sure that the boy has control with the shouldered portion, the trigger, cheek on the stock, etc. The instructor is in the same relative position as the boy from the muzzle, so it is safe. Some of the boys don't care if they even hit a clay, they just want to experience the recoil and blast of shooting a shotgun for the first time. As far as I can think of, this has been safe and the boy walks away smiling and a few times they have amazingly even hit the clay with the assist in lifting the forearm from the instructor. Keep in mind there is no side to side sweep needed, just a slow and smooth elevation of the barrel. But it troubles me that perhaps this is too much assistance, in a Scouting sense? We aren't training them in the finer points of shotgunning though, we are really training them to be able to acquire their shotgunning merit badge when they get a bit older.
3. Is there anything portable, any kind of stand or bracket system that exists that would let us mount the shotgun to a stand with some elevation possible while restricting movement to unsafe angles? Kind of like the shotgunning version of the metal thing that is used in bowling alleys for kids who are too small to lift the ball and throw it? If the kids need to really only elevate the barrel a foot or two to hit a clay in our setup, I am wondering about the relative safety and worth to the program to ensure that every Scout gets a chance to shoot a shotgun? The device would have to be height adjustable for different height shooters to a point but the ones who usually have problems lifting the shotgun are the shortest, youngest Scouts, but using it would negate the shotgun being dropped or pointing in an unsafe direction while still allowing them to experience shooting at and sometimes busting a clay.
We don't shoot trap or skeet, our goal is to just make it so every Scout has a decent chance of just connecting with their first clay. They get five shots, five shells and clays and many of them run five for five if they have shot before or have their Shotgun Merit Badge but with the newest, smallest Scouts, we are challenged how to address this issue safely and effectively. So if you were in our position, what would you do? How would you handle it? We can just not let them shoot but that would be counter-intuitive to our goals of our shoot days and to the goals of Scouting in general. The vast majority of our Scouts handle the shotguns very safely and hit some clays and have a great time. We are just not sure how to make sure that the smallest, newest Scouts can enjoy the same thrill. The Youth Compact has a 21" barrel and is 40.25" long. Is there an equivalent of a Cricket but in a shotgun? Something even smaller and lighter? Is going even smaller and lighter than the Youth Compact counter intuitive? I own a junior sized 20 ga. single shot that weighs less and is shorter, but of course, it has more felt recoil since it is not a semi-auto. Just not sure of a solution for small 11 year olds to safely enjoy shotgunning?
Thanks for advice and feedback.
I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor and I spend a lot of time instructing first time shooters, Boy Scouts specifically, how to shoot safely and how to be able to hit some clays their first time ever shooting. I am also part of the Ventura County BSA Council Shooting Sports Committee. We recently had our first Family Shoot Day up at our Boy Scout Camp in Lockwood Valley where we trained over two hundred Scouts, their siblings and parents how to safely shoot shotguns, many of them, for the first time. The event was a fun, frantic and long day and our instructor team as well as the Scouts and families had a great time. We use regular and Youth Compact sized Remington 1187s. The challenge we continue to encounter is that we often have Boy Scouts who have just bridged from Webelos/Cub Scouts into Boy Scouts and the smaller Scouts, who often amaze me at how small they are, seriously, some of these kids must be 60lbs and stand under three feet, have a hard time holding up even a Youth Compact sized shotgun. We have pretty conservative and refined safety procedures requiring one instructor with each shooter. In between shots, the receiver is open, the instructor then loads a single round for them and closes the receiver, they take a single shot, then alternate with the other shooter(s) as they someday will when shooting Trap or Skeet. At no time does a Scout hold a loaded shotgun without an instructor more than a foot away from them. We are fanatics on trigger discipline and muzzle control. No kid gets onto the range without hearing the Four Rules, reciting at least one of them in Q&A for their group. Our safety record speaks for itself, we have never had an ND or accident.
These little guys do fine with the .22 rifles in the Rifle Shooting program because the rifles are shot from benches and sandbags so the size and strength of the scout isn't a factor. With shotgun though, we continually run into issues where the smaller Scouts lack the body strength to even hold up a 6.5lb, Compact length shotgun, they seem to have little to no upper body strength. It is difficult to instruct first in safety, then about technique when the Scout is struggling even hold up the shotgun to their cheek and sight down the barrel. Keep in mind too that these are the Youth Compact sized 1187s so they are not very long and not very heavy at 6.5lbs. At our last event, we had one scout who ended up lightly dropping the muzzle of the already empty shotgun onto the concrete pad (no damage to the shotgun muzzle), after he had taken his shot, and we had one boy who was struggling so much with the weight and length that he was wavering with the muzzle. It never became a safety issue because the instructor was right next to him and was able to assist and help the boy steady the shotgun. Keep in mind that we launch from a stationary, non-oscillating trap machine at about 12 yards so the clay is always in the same spot and the boys don't have to aim from side to side, just slowly and smoothly follow the clay up, hopefully shooting it as it ascends.
Here are my questions:
1. From a safety standpoint, in your opinion, should we just kick these little guys off of the range if they are not strong enough to hold the shotgun up and shoot it? I have done this twice so far, but it breaks my heart because these are our future shooters, we want them to have a great first experience shooting a shotgun, etc. The problem is usually with the forearm grip, they overextend it and fatigue too quickly but sometimes it is just that they lack the strength because they are so damn small. Some of these kids need some growth hormones.
2. A few of the instructors have stood right next to the boys and assisted them in lifting the shotgun, as they shoot, mainly helping them to lift the forearm up, making sure that the boy has control with the shouldered portion, the trigger, cheek on the stock, etc. The instructor is in the same relative position as the boy from the muzzle, so it is safe. Some of the boys don't care if they even hit a clay, they just want to experience the recoil and blast of shooting a shotgun for the first time. As far as I can think of, this has been safe and the boy walks away smiling and a few times they have amazingly even hit the clay with the assist in lifting the forearm from the instructor. Keep in mind there is no side to side sweep needed, just a slow and smooth elevation of the barrel. But it troubles me that perhaps this is too much assistance, in a Scouting sense? We aren't training them in the finer points of shotgunning though, we are really training them to be able to acquire their shotgunning merit badge when they get a bit older.
3. Is there anything portable, any kind of stand or bracket system that exists that would let us mount the shotgun to a stand with some elevation possible while restricting movement to unsafe angles? Kind of like the shotgunning version of the metal thing that is used in bowling alleys for kids who are too small to lift the ball and throw it? If the kids need to really only elevate the barrel a foot or two to hit a clay in our setup, I am wondering about the relative safety and worth to the program to ensure that every Scout gets a chance to shoot a shotgun? The device would have to be height adjustable for different height shooters to a point but the ones who usually have problems lifting the shotgun are the shortest, youngest Scouts, but using it would negate the shotgun being dropped or pointing in an unsafe direction while still allowing them to experience shooting at and sometimes busting a clay.
We don't shoot trap or skeet, our goal is to just make it so every Scout has a decent chance of just connecting with their first clay. They get five shots, five shells and clays and many of them run five for five if they have shot before or have their Shotgun Merit Badge but with the newest, smallest Scouts, we are challenged how to address this issue safely and effectively. So if you were in our position, what would you do? How would you handle it? We can just not let them shoot but that would be counter-intuitive to our goals of our shoot days and to the goals of Scouting in general. The vast majority of our Scouts handle the shotguns very safely and hit some clays and have a great time. We are just not sure how to make sure that the smallest, newest Scouts can enjoy the same thrill. The Youth Compact has a 21" barrel and is 40.25" long. Is there an equivalent of a Cricket but in a shotgun? Something even smaller and lighter? Is going even smaller and lighter than the Youth Compact counter intuitive? I own a junior sized 20 ga. single shot that weighs less and is shorter, but of course, it has more felt recoil since it is not a semi-auto. Just not sure of a solution for small 11 year olds to safely enjoy shotgunning?
Thanks for advice and feedback.
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