22lr Competition Question

[pennys dad]

Hi

I have a question for all of you 22lr Competitors.

Considering ranges from 25 yards to 100 yards, what is the common type scope, magnification and reticle of choice?

[Izzy43]

Since you did not specify the type of competion I will assume you mean bullseye target which are scored by number, such as X, 10, 9, 8, .....

If I assumed correctly then a scope that is 6-24x would be the minimum that I could recommend (Weaver V24 comes to mind). The reticle would be a then crosshair or a thin crosshair with a dot. No Mil-dot reticles. A thin duplex reticle would also be an ok choice.

You did not mention the ammo, but expect to use at least mid-grad match ammo for the best accuracy. Minimum of Wolf Match Target.

[pennys dad]

excellent assumption Sir, on all accounts.

below is an example course of fire:

Match Rules:
Only 10 rounds in the gun at any time.
You may load during prep.
Bolt open or safety engaged during any position changes and movement.

Stage 1
100yd Cold bore
Round count: 1
Start position: Standing , port arms, bolt open.
On the beep, engage the square.
60 points for a hit.
60 points possible
60 seconds prep, 30 seconds shoot time.

Stage 2
25yd Faces
Round count: 6
Start position: Standing, rifle on ground, bolt open.
On the beep, engage the target from the prone position with two rounds on each of your badguys.
10 points for each shot within the number box
100 points possible
60 sec prep and 60 sec shoot time.

Stage 3
25yd Flies
Round count: 20
Start position: Standing, rifle port arms.
On the beep, engage each fly with one round from the NRA seated position, sling support only.
5 points per fly.
100 points possible.
60 seconds prep, 120 second shoot time.

Stage 4
50yd Hostage
Round count: 8
Start position: Prone behind rifle.
On the beep, engage the hostage target from the unsupported prone position with two rounds on each bad guy.
15 points for shots within the scoring box, 5 points for any other bad guy hit, and -15 points for each hostage hit.
-120 to 120 points possible
60 sec prep and 90 sec shoot time.


Stage 5
50yd Invisible targets.
Round count: 6
Start position: Prone behind rifle.
On the beep, engage the 6 invisible targets at 50yds from the prone position with one shot each.
You are unable to see the targets, but your spotters can see them and they are giving you the following corrections from an aiming point that you can see.
The 1st target is 2moa right and 4moa up from the aiming point.
The 2nd target is 2.2 mils right and 2.8 mils up from the aiming point.
The 3rd target is 6moa right and 2moa up from the aiming point.
The 4th target is 4.8 mils right and 2.4 mils up from the aiming point.
The 5th target is 4moa right and 12moa up from the aiming point.
The 6th target is 3.4 mils right and 1.6 mils up from the aiming point.
The conversion formula from MOA > MILs is MOA / 3.438
The conversion formula from MILs > MOA is MILs X 3.438
25 points for shots inside or touching the scoring rings.
150 points possible
120 sec prep and 120 sec shoot time.


Stage 6
75yd Standard KYL.
Round count: up to 13
Start position: Standing, rifle on ground, bolt open.
On the beep, engage the circles from largest to smallest, stopping if you do not believe you can make a sure hit. A miss causes shooter to zero the whole target. No rear bag allowed, shooting glove or shemagh only.
10 points per circle
130 points possible.
60 seconds prep, 90 second shoot time.


Stage 7
75yd Pool balls the hard way.
Round count: 8
Start position: Prone behind rifle.
On the beep, engage all the solid pool balls. The 8 ball is optional. A hit to the 8 ball without also hitting all other solid balls causes the shooter to lose all points. Bipod support only, no rear bag, shooting glove or shemagh. Bare hand only.
10 points per ball except the 8 ball is worth 30 or zero points if all solids are not hit.
100 points possible.
60 seconds prep, 60 seconds shoot time.


Stage 8
90yd Barricades
Round count: 10
Start position: Standing at barricade, rifle at port arms, only 5 rounds loaded.
On the beep, engage the IPSC target with 1 shot from each barricade port.
Move to the spools and fire one shot from each spool.
Move to the second barricade and engage the IPSC target with 1 shot from each level.
Scoring as per points values on target.
150 points possible.
60 seconds prep, 120 second shoot time.

Stage 9
100 yd Mad Half Minute
Round count: Unlimited
Start position: Standing, rifle on ground, bolt open.
On the beep, engage target with as many rounds as you desire in 30 seconds.
Any shots after 30.5 seconds will be scored -10 points each.
Scoring as per points values on target
Top bolt gun and top semi shooter earn additional 50 points.
60 seconds prep, 30 second shoot time.

Stage 10
Battlefield pickup
Round count: 12
Start position: low ready position.
On the beep, engage cardboard IDPA target with 5 rounds. Set pistol down, proceed to rifle.
Load rifle and engage cardboard IDPA target with 5 rounds. Set weapon down, proceed to your rifle.
Engage cardboard IDPA target head with 2 rounds.
Scoring: A zone = 10 pts, B zone =5 pts, C zone = 2 pts, D zone = 1 pts.
120 points possible
60 seconds prep, 60 seconds shoot time.

Since you did not specify the type of competion I will assume you mean bullseye target which are scored by number, such as X, 10, 9, 8, .....

If I assumed correctly then a scope that is 6-24x would be the minimum that I could recommend (Weaver V24 comes to mind). The reticle would be a then crosshair or a thin crosshair with a dot. No Mil-dot reticles. A thin duplex reticle would also be an ok choice.

You did not mention the ammo, but expect to use at least mid-grad match ammo for the best accuracy. Minimum of Wolf Match Target.

[Moving Chicane]

Jacob - What rifle are you planning on using for this?

(Hope all is well; hope to see you soon!)


-Dan

[G-forceJunkie]

Here is a list of the scopes I have seen on our line:
Nikon Buckmaster in 4.5-14 and 6-18 with mildot reticles
falcon menace 4-14X44
Bushnell 3-12x44 Elite 4200 Mil/Mil Illuminated
Swarovski ZFM 6x42
Bushnell 4200 3-12x44 FFP
3-9x32 Bushnell with target knobs
Bushnell 4200 6-24x50
Vector First Focal Plane 6x24
Mueller APT 4-14x40

For the Precision/tactical matches we shoot ,the key features for me is to be able to see your bullet holes at 50 yards (100 would be better), adjustable paralax, and some sort of ranging reticle (mil dot, etc) for holdovers.

[skxf430]

What are you thoughts to a Weaver Super Slam or Grand Slam?

[cudakidd]

Things to look for...1/8" click over 1/4, 30MM tube over 1". These two will give you more adjustments for elevation.

Bigger objective, 50 MM to 56MM. More light gathering equals clearer shot picture.

NOT Chinese made! Many of the OEM optics now outsourch to china. Plastic instead of glass lens as result on many. Check out various scope forums to see reviews.

I actually like Mil-dot due to the cross winds here and mirage on our range. Helps hold over which is what Mil Dot if for!

Good solid scope mounts, Picatinny or Weaver bases are easy to use. Due to the size of my scopes, I use BKL Double Strap non weaver bases with 15 Pounds of torgue to mount and Locktite.

[G-forceJunkie]

Things to look for...1/8" click over 1/4, 30MM tube over 1". These two will give you more adjustments for elevation.

Finer adjustments do not typically give more adjustmet. It just takes twice as much knob turning to get there. For example, the two Nikon examples I posted above, the 6-18 comes onlywith 1/8moa knobs. The 4,5-14 comes with 1/4 moa knobs. They both have the same internal adjustment. However the 6-18 is only 6 moa per revolution where the 4.5-14 is 12. When shooting .22lr's out to 200 yards, you need about 25moa of elevation with target ammo. Thats more than 4 full turns of the elevation knob. It is not ideal and very easy to get lost in the knob as to where your 50 yards zero is. For the precision.tactical matches the OP is talking about, 1/8moa knobs suck. I know, both my match .22's have them. And it cost me this months match when I got the elevation knob off a full turn and zeroed a few stages.

[cudakidd]

You are arguing against simple math. You will have more clicks, hence more adjustment with 1/8 and 30MM tubes. For fine adjustment I find just the opposite from you in the clicks. I get more precise adjustments with 1/8 clicks. I shoot a ranges that vary by 100 yards and found the 1" tubes with 1/4 clicks ran of of adjustments because the "range" of clicks available was apx half.

Great explanation on the click usage here...

http://www.millettsights.com/resources/shooting-tips/mastering-your-target-knobs/

Remember OP did not orginally state what kind of match he is shooting. His update was only a max 100 yard match. My rifle would do fine in his match since some stages are spray and pray! I have a JPoint co=mounted to use doing the half roll of the rifle, sighted in for 25 yards for rapid acquistion. The difficult issue for him would be the standing shooting for precison at 100 yards. But For our matches, 1/8 is the way to go. For run and gun, simplier may be better.

[G-forceJunkie]

You're arguing against basic mechanics. A 1 inch long screw with a 32 pitch thread is not any longer than a 1 inch screw with a 16 pitch thread. Yes, the finer pitch thread (the 1/8 moa knobs vs the 1/4moa knobs) will be give you more precise adjustment, but that is not the argument here. Two exact scopes from the same maker and model, one with 1/4 moa knobs and one with 1/8 moa knobs will have the same about of total internal adjustment. The reticle cage is the same size, the tube is the same size, the only difference is the graduations (the thread pitch on the erector assembly.) 1" tube vs 30mm, indeed a bigger tube typically has more room inside thus more available internal adjustment.
I know what type of match the OP is talking about, he posted MY match. I wrote that COF. This months was only 100 yards because we were on a private 100 yard range, not the 600 yard range we usually use. Mine and Bill's matches here in Los Angeles have been the only Precision/Tactical .22 matches of the sort since 2008. We shoot from 10 to 200 yards regularly, and have shot out to 375 in previous matches. It's about precision under pressure and ackward positions. We don't "run and gun" and a non magnified site is useless. Our 25 yard targets are 1/4 diameter. The target of stage 9 that you claim your Jpoint would do fine with was 1.75" diameter at 100 yards.

[pennys dad]

so turns out I had a Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 in the safe but i found it after i bought on of these Nikon Buckmasters 6-18x40mm.

So I mounted the Bushnell (mounted on a CMMG dedicated 20in 22lr upper), I am going to see how it does at the 4th of July Calguns shoot at Burro. We have E1 so I will be able to range out past 100 yards

[pennys dad]

Jacob - What rifle are you planning on using for this?

(Hope all is well; hope to see you soon!)

-Dan

CMMG 20" dedicated 22lr service rifle upper on a CMMG lower

Hey Dan

[pennys dad]

I have 10 different kinds of ammo to try, from Eley to Federal Match and on. It will be a 22lr DAY!!

[cudakidd]

Finer adjustments do not typically give more adjustmet. It just takes twice as much knob turning to get there. For example, the two Nikon examples I posted above, the 6-18 comes onlywith 1/8moa knobs. The 4,5-14 comes with 1/4 moa knobs. They both have the same internal adjustment. However the 6-18 is only 6 moa per revolution where the 4.5-14 is 12. When shooting .22lr's out to 200 yards, you need about 25moa of elevation with target ammo. Thats more than 4 full turns of the elevation knob. It is not ideal and very easy to get lost in the knob as to where your 50 yards zero is. For the precision.tactical matches the OP is talking about, 1/8moa knobs suck. I know, both my match .22's have them. And it cost me this months match when I got the elevation knob off a full turn and zeroed a few stages.

We can agree to disagree. I have been competing and running OUR small bore tactical matches waaay before 2008, not that that matters. One of our regular competitors was an alternate on the Olympic small bore team...

So Chest beating aside there are valid reasons for those scopes. We love them up here. The OP can make a informed choice and consider what he wants to do. My scope would work fine in a tactical match since I know how many clicks to come up at various ranges...

My scope happens to be a Hakko...the OEM manufacturer for the Nikon Tactical...

My Jpoint red dot will do fine at the range I noticed in the stage listing...Stage 2 NOT stage 9! Please NOTE I specifically mentioned that range too...

We shoot up here with lots of mirage and wind...trying to hit a 6" steel plate in a 30 MPH cross wind at 175 yards is difficult without precise adjustments to allow for those conditions.

You shoot your match and I'll shoot mine. There is a reason for the 1/8" adjustments and it happens to work great on our style matches which are stationary matches with time to use all the clicks you need! No one here has forgot the amounts, all have managed to do so in the allotted sight in time and more importantly, we all have fun...

[G-forceJunkie]

I'm not debating a 1/8 moa knobed scope does no work, heck, as I mentioned, it is what I run! My contention is you claim that, everything else being equal, 1/8 moa knobs have more travel than a 1/4 moa scope. In my experience with identical scopes, the 1/4 moa scope has 50 moa of total elevation built in. The 1/8 moa knobed version also has 50 moa of total elevation. Yes, it has twice as many clicks in between the top and bottom, but that does not give one "more adjustments for elevation." If a 1/4 moa scope tops out at lest say 200 yards, buying the exact same scope with 1/8moa knobs is not going to get you any farther. Perhaps I misread your first post and we are arguing semantics. Either way, it doesn't matter. We both enjoy shooting .22's lets have fun doing that.