Scope mount adjustment question

[rmatt]

While I may be a pistol pro, optics on rifles are new to me. So sorry if this is a silly question or too obvious.

I think I am chasing a mount issue. As things are set up now, I do not have enough elevation adjustment to zero the scope.

If my POA is at the center my POI is high still with the elevation knob maxed out in it's adjustment to bring the POI down.

My question is, if I'm picturing this correctly that means my mount is too low in the front. Right?

More detailed background information.
Fulton Armory mount on a SA M1A Scout Squad (the 18" barrel).
Weaver low mount rings.
Leupold Rifleman scope 3x9 40mm.
Windage adjustment was perfet right out the box.
I used a torque wrench in inch pounds so I haven't crushed a tube or anything like that.

So I'm thinking I seriously didn't get the mount level and what I need to fix to bring my POA/POI together is to raise the front of the mount.

Does this jive with the experts here?

[JMP]

You shouldn't have an issue. The scope has a 56 MOA range. I'll assume that you are not using a canted base or a rail. If your POI is lower than your POA, you need to dial the scope UP. Assuming that your scope axis is parallel to your bore, this shouldn't require more than 5 MOA. You may want to use a level on your scope and bore to verify that they are both level.

Also, are you zeroing at 100? If you are zeroing at a close distance, you may have some issues. With a 100 yard zero, if the scope's axis is centered, you should have 28 MOA up and 28 MOA down. Since the scope sits higher than the bore, it may take about 5 MOA to zero at 100, which should leave you with a 100 yard zero and at least 20 MOA available for elevation.

Also, if you have a canted base or mount, this could be the issue as 56 MOA of adjustment doesn't leave you with much room.

[kcheung2]

How are you actually determining zero? Are you sending real rounds downrange at a distance of 25yds or greater? Or using a laser boresighter, either in-chamber or a barrel tip type? Or just looking down the bore and eyeballing it to match the scope?

When you say POI & POA don't match, at what distance are you doing this? and how many inches apart are they?

[rmatt]

This is where it gets embarrassing for me and those with experience slapping their foreheads.

I am/was trying to get a rough zero at close distance, 25yards, indoors before going outdoors. I am/was trying to just see if I was close or even just on paper before heading out to where I could do a 100 or 200 yard zero. (which i do have access to and will be doing next week)

So at 25 yards when I am at the center of my target I am hitting 13 inches higher than my poa.

-Is it unrealistic to think I could get a rough zero at 25 yards before heading outside?
-Should I still be looking more at me maybe having not mounted the mount level relative to the barrel?

Thank you so far for your help.

[JMP]

This is where it gets embarrassing for me and those with experience slapping their foreheads.

I am/was trying to get a rough zero at close distance, 25yards, indoors before going outdoors. I am/was trying to just see if I was close or even just on paper before heading out to where I could do a 100 or 200 yard zero. (which i do have access to and will be doing next week)

So at 25 yards when I am at the center of my target I am hitting 13 inches higher than my poa.

-Is it unrealistic to think I could get a rough zero at 25 yards before heading outside?
-Should I still be looking more at me maybe having not mounted the mount level relative to the barrel?

Thank you so far for your help.

Yes, go outside and try 100. As the scope sits above the rifle, you need to angle the scope down quite a bit to be on target for 25 (about 4x more than 100). As an example, a 25 yard zero on iron sights with and AR-15 will coincide with a 300+ yard zero. That said, it still sounds like you aren't getting much room with your scope, so I'd check it with a level to make sure there is nothing hinky.

[rmatt]

I still have my question though of:

If my POI is 12" higher than my POA at 25 yards and I've maxed out the downward elevation, when I'm looking at leveling the scope do I A.raise the front of the mount or B.lower the front of the mount.

I will also be trying to find a small level to buy in helping with this. Thanks.

[autoduel]

Re-seat your mounts and check your barrel is not bent. Or something is wrong with your scope. 12" high at 25 yards is beyond a simple adjustment issue.
Try reversing the front and rear rings.

[kcheung2]

You've turned the elevevation knob Down and it can't go any further right? Simple test, pull out the bolt & look down the bore. Then turn the elevation knob the other way, about 48 MOA. If its even worse now then its likely the mount. However if the bore & scope roughly correspond, then everything's fine & you just got the turret directions mixed up.

[JMP]

I still have my question though of:

If my POI is 12" higher than my POA at 25 yards and I've maxed out the downward elevation, when I'm looking at leveling the scope do I A.raise the front of the mount or B.lower the front of the mount.

I will also be trying to find a small level to buy in helping with this. Thanks.

You'd want to raise the front. However, it sounds like there is some misalignment in your system. If you have mounted it so that you have no cant built into the angle of your scope, the scope's axis should be parallel with the bore of your rifle. I'd recommend using a level to set your bore in a position that is parallel with the ground. Then, without moving the rifle, use the level on the scope. I suspect that you will find that they are not parallel. You are either using a mounting system with too much cant for your scope, or the base (such as a picatinny rail) is not properly aligned with your bore. Try to figure out where this misalignment is coming into play. There is a possibility that the optic is defective.

A picture may help. Make sure you haven't done something really silly like mounted the scope sideways, etc. It's nothing to be embarrassed about--I have made every mistake in the book. Recently, I spent time carefully installing a scope into a mount. Then, when I was done, I looked down and realized that the mount screws were on the wrong side--I had mounted the scope backwards.

[JMP]

Also, dial the scope all the way down. Then, count the number of clicks from the bottom to the top to make sure you are getting the full range specified (~224 if in 1/4 MOA clicks or ~163 if in 0.1 Mil clicks).

[rmatt]

Thanks. I did buy two small levels today. This will be the third time with everything off, insturctions re-read and back on again.

Just checking things off the list....
-the mount doesn't appear canted. it is level side to side and the windage was perfect right out of the box. so seems reasonable the left to right cant is level.
-i was worried i was turning the elevation knob the wrong way so got out the manual again. the "D"on the turret means moving the point of impact down. I have cranked full turns in the D direction.
-as this is a lower level scope there are no "clicks"just turns. to me it appears to have the correct amount of turns. (but I could be wrong...)
-I can't bore sight it, as the reciever blocks that sort of view. and the mount obscures the irons.

The FA instructions have no pictures sadly, just words. Not the best way for me to make sure I get it right.

Previously this rifle had an Aimpoint on it in the forward scout mount and it worked great out to 400 yards. I then decided I wanted magnification and it's been frustrating. I've put various red dots on multiple rifles (all AR platform) and never had an issue and was sighted in great in 10 shots max.

My plan is this, first take it all apart again. Get the gun mounted to where the barrel is level. With a level. Then mount the mount and make sure it is level with a level as well. Then I will remount the scope for part two and head out to the range rather than trying to get it close indoors before heading out.

A friend offered to help but then was kinda dismissive since I bought a $200 scope instead of something 800 plus. So you guys are my help!!

And yeah, I don't discount that I haven't done something silly or overlooked that someone with more experience would have picked up.

[JMP]

A friend offered to help but then was kinda dismissive since I bought a $200 scope instead of something 800 plus. So you guys are my help!!

With these very inexpensive scopes, there can be issues. It could be that the scope's axis is far from center. Check that nothing in your system is misaligned. If everything checks out, I'd not spend too much money on a remedy since mounts and such will end up costing more than the scope warrants. Then, if the scope has issues, it may not even hold zero once you get it fixed.

If you use a level to make sure everything is aligned and your mount is parallel with the bore, I'd recommend just shimming the front ring. This will sound very ghetto, but it will work. Get an aluminum soda can and cut a few rectangular strips cleanly and aligned so the arc of the can lines up with the arc in your rings. Then use an adhesive to glue the strips together. Put this in the bottom of your front ring between the ring and the scope. That'll get you enough lift to zero.

[autoduel]

To check if it's the scope, you can also rotate the scope in the mounts and see if you start shooting 12" to the left instead of high.
If it does, then your mount is probably GTG.

[rmatt]

So I got some small line levels and used them. With one on the muzzle brake showing level i then put one on the mount and you couldn't even see teh bubble. It was almost 1/4 inch low in the front compared to the position it was then remounted and moved to where it was then the same level as the gauge on the brake.

Now at least the mount and the barrel are much much closer to being in a parallel line.

I will be out on the range next week to dial it in.