School Me on ACOGS

[Dr.Mavashi]

So, which is the holly grail of durability and longevity

For 16 inch barrel, does a particular twist work better with a particular sub type?

how to gage prices for a used one ?

Thank you!

[jarhead714]

You want to pick up a used one in the $800-$1000 range but be sure it’s the reticle you want. For civilian use out of a 16 inch barrel, just get a TA31F with your choice of reticle. The RCOM4 and A4 have unnecessary ranging stadia that just get in the way. The field of view and edge to edge clarity of the glass will blow your mind. I have a TA31, an RCOM4, and a TA33. The latter is an acquired taste.

I can’t stress enough how clear the glass is in virtually any lighting condition. Keep an eye out for the TAO2 and TA110 models. They have battery illumination and eliminate many complaints about the optic aside from the short eye relief which shouldn’t be a problem with proper shooting position. It takes about 15-30 minutes to learn the Bindon Aiming Concept on the most basic level and as long as the tritium is good or there is enough ambient light, you do have a serviceable if half azzed red dot sight.

[tacticalcity]

For all the upsides and coolness factor of an ACOG there are some downsides to be aware of with this optic. Bear in mind, I am playing devil's advocate here. There are as much or more good things to say about the ACOG than bad. You said school you. That means discussing the downsides, not just the good things.

The most obvious downside is that it is fixed power. Making it less than ideal for anything inside medium ranges. For example, home defense or CQB. Yes, it has been used by the military in such situations. That was more of a roll with what you've got thing than by choice. It is designed for open area battles where the distances are well over 300 yards. And even then, it was typically issued to leadership, such as officers and NCOs who would use it to PID the enemy at distance and relay that information to the grunts who usually had red dots. After all, the leadership was not going to be the first on through the door...if they were even going in at all. There are plenty of exceptions to that rule as there always are. But you get my point. If you plan to use it mostly at medium to longer ranges, then having fixed magnification will be fine. If not, I recommend putting a Trijicon RMR Type 2 manually adjusting red dot on top of it. Trijicon makes an adapter mount that will let you put this on any ACOG, or so I believe. Could be wrong. It takes a good deal of practice to get used to transitioning between the two. More than you might think. The same would be true if you went with an LPVO and top or offset mounted red dot. So, remember to practice it when you go to the range.

Another downside is the short eye relief. I don't remember it being that bad, but it has been a couple decades since I have owned one. A few videos I have watched recently mention this issue a lot and the guys are having to really crank their necks on the rifle to get a good sight picture often moving the stock all the way in and running their nose against the charging handle. Personally, I have short arms, so I run my stock on the first notch anyway. For those who like their stock further out this could be an issue. Bear in mind, this is older technology. There has been a lot of advances in scopes since these were invented, and most modern LPVOs in the same price range are going to have very forgiving eye relief and very forgiving eye boxes by comparison. Cheap scopes, not so much.

Which brings me to my last complaint. At the $1000-$2000 range that an AGOG will run you (depending on the model) you can get a really nice LPVO. Vortex Razor Gen II SFP 1-6 scopes, which many consider the benchmark for an LPVO go for $1200-$1500 now, sometimes even with a mount. I'm running a Trijicon Credo SFP 1-6 LPVO with a Geissele extended mount that would have run me about $1500 if not for the fact that I have a wholesale account. When you add in the cost of the Trijicon RMR and Reptilia top mount it would have run about $2K. Which is about the same as what a TA31F, RMR and adapter would cost. The difference is, with either of those LPVOs you get longer eye relief and the option to run at 1X. But again, they are bulkier and likely heavier (but not always as the ACOG is not exactly lightweight). Which is why my preferred optic, that I run on the majority of my ARs, is an Aimpoint T2. If you need magnification a magnifier is an option but those come with plenty of their own issues. Therefore, your setup needs to match how you plan to use the rifle. There is no such thing as a do it all rifle, not even if it is an AR. They are all tools in the toolbox. Having a few with different optics setups ensures you always have the right tool for the right job.

All that said, as mentioned above the ACOGs have great glass that is very clear. The short length of them is also really nice and doesn't make them feel bulky and unwieldy like LPVOs often can. Not to mention they are very "old school cool". So, there are plenty of upsides to them as well. If you are going with a GWOT era clone they are an especially good choice since LPVOs were not really a thing back then, then ones they did have sucked when compared to modern versions. Which is why the ACOG was invented in the first place.

As far as the reticle goes, for me the color matters most. Don't get the model with the Amber colored chevron. It is impossible to see in a lot of conditions. Which is a shame because it is a sexy looking optic with the backup irons on top of it. I have not tried a green one, but supposedly green is easier for the eye to pick up. I've run the TA31F mentioned above with a red chevron and liked it.

[Dr.Mavashi]

You want to pick up a used one in the $800-$1000 range but be sure it’s the reticle you want. For civilian use out of a 16 inch barrel, just get a TA31F with your choice of reticle. The RCOM4 and A4 have unnecessary ranging stadia that just get in the way. The field of view and edge to edge clarity of the glass will blow your mind. I have a TA31, an RCOM4, and a TA33. The latter is an acquired taste.

I can’t stress enough how clear the glass is in virtually any lighting condition. Keep an eye out for the TAO2 and TA110 models. They have battery illumination and eliminate many complaints about the optic aside from the short eye relief which shouldn’t be a problem with proper shooting position. It takes about 15-30 minutes to learn the Bindon Aiming Concept on the most basic level and as long as the tritium is good or there is enough ambient light, you do have a serviceable if half azzed red dot sight.

Thank you so much, this is for my apocalypses musket - PWS 16 inch upper build that has Vortex Spitfire HD Gen 2 prism scope. I am pretty happy with it, but I want a sledge hammer proof optic - and of course there is only one. I want a non battery/tritium, again end of the world specs. So, you recommend TA31F - but you would not advise a ranging stadia reticle, that is interesting, I read so much about the ACCS reticles from PA in ACOGS, it sounded like Holy Grail kind of thing. I am not former infantry man, and I don’t shoot more then 200 yards a month - and that’s tops. So, wouldn’t range stadia help a newb like me with BDC - thank you again!

[tacticalcity]

If you want a more advanced reticle with both windage and elevation has marks you could get the US Army version, the RCO model TA31RCO-M150CP. For ranging on an ACOG you can use the Triangle and its relationship to the size of your target to estimate distance. This particular model came out after I last had an ACOG. Or at least it became available to civilians after I sold my last ACOG. It looks pretty cool, and usable.

Bomb proof or not, I still recommend putting an RMR on top. The mount is part number AC32065. The RMR RM09 has a 1MOA dot and the RM06 has a 3.5MOA dot. Either would work well as a backup on a rifle. The RMR can be something you add later if funds are not immediately available.

I have been tempted to do another GWOT clone, so I have been spending time watching videos on the ACOG and refreshing myself on model numbers, accessories, etc.

[Dr.Mavashi]

tacticalcity Thank you again. This is for my PWS new build which more of MadMax go to musket rather then a GWOT build per se. I have a long stroke piston upper where bolt and BCG will live longer versus DI and will require far less cleaning and lubrication, so conceptually it should have ACOG as shock proof, 5+ years dusk illumination power source (tritium) and unlimited daytime illumination source (fiberoptic) strip so I am thinking ACOG that really shines at 25/300 and 50/200 zeros, and with enough of Binden method hours under belt can do red dot functionality at 50-100 to some extent. Pleat let me know if I am on crack. Thank you.

[tacticalcity]

The reason I keep suggesting an RMR as a backup is so you'll have the ability to take shots under say 75-100 yards quickly without getting lost in the magnification. Anything close-in and magnification is the enemy. Without some other form of sight you're having to use something else, such as the scope body to guestimate your shots. Yes, it is battery dependent. But it uses a regularly available battery you can stock up on dirt cheap. Even though you're not worried about being clone correct, the fact that Trijicon makes an ACOG adapter specifically for the RMR and nothing else out there really exists you're gonna want something that at least has the RMR footprint. And the RMR and more expensive enclosed RCR also meet your requirement of being "bomb proof" as they are incredibly tough. Watch the drop test videos on them. The main advantage of the RCR to me is that you get awesome ruggedness and the battery can be replaced without removing the optic. The downside is the price. They are crazy expensive all on their own. Plus the ACOG just looks cool with an RMR. Again, I recommend the manually adjustable models. The auto adjusting ones are never bright enough for my liking.

Even if we have the zombie apocalypse and all the watch batteries dry up. Your ACOG will keep running, and you can at least use the RMRs body as a somewhat accurate close in aiming window. In the real world, batteries will always be readily available. But again, the RMR can be a down the road addon. After you see how well the ACOG works without it.

I suppose you could run offset irons if you want to avoid batteries at all costs. But those are a pain in the backside to use by comparison.

[tacticalcity]

One thing I will say, I used to hate the very idea of changing batteries and being battery dependent myself. But these days high end red dots are getting crazy long battery life. The RMR is supposed to get 4 years. The RCR gets 6 years. An Aimpoint ACRO P2 gets 5.7 years and my usual go to for a primary optic the Aimpoint T2 gets 5 years.

That said LPVOS usually get about half those numbers, if I remember correctly.

[jarhead714]

I only have one RMR/ACOG combo and I really want another. Very natural. I barely have to move my head up in fact, even though it’s improper I can just close my right eye real quick on the ACOG and quickly focus on the target/dot then get both eyes back open on the target/dot. The Bindon jive is only valid within the same pretty close area as you are and though it is effective if practiced it is not a substitute for a red dot. If you want absolutely bombproof then pretty much your only choice is the RMR but there are much better red dots available. All this stuff is pretty ancient technology, but it’s two essential qualities of being extremely overbuilt and having just absolutely amazing glass (with respect to the ACOG) that is will spoil you rotten.

[Dr.Mavashi]

jarhead714 does RCO model TA31RCO-M150CP mentioned by tacticalcity has windage/elevation markings do you think they are less “invasive” then RCOM4 that you mentioned? Thank you.

[jarhead714]

jarhead714 does RCO model TA31RCO-M150CP mentioned by tacticalcity has windage/elevation markings do you think they are less “invasive” then RCOM4 that you mentioned? Thank you.

To my knowledge, there are no ACOGs with windage holds. They all have ranging holds for the bullet drop based on projectile and barrel length. There are seemingly a million of them, but they’re all pretty damn close. You have to put the ACCOUNT G as being a precision optic out of your mind. The stadia on the RCO‘s are meant so that one guy can say to another guy with an RCO, “Hey, you see that thing over there so many mils left of that (whatever)?” It’s used as a way to measure things for indirect fire or inter- squad communication it has next to zero civilian use.

[tacticalcity]

To my knowledge, there are no ACOGs with windage holds. They all have ranging holds for the bullet drop based on projectile and barrel length. There are seemingly a million of them, but they’re all pretty damn close. You have to put the ACCOUNT G as being a precision optic out of your mind. The stadia on the RCO‘s are meant so that one guy can say to another guy with an RCO, “Hey, you see that thing over there so many mils left of that (whatever)?” It’s used as a way to measure things for indirect fire or inter- squad communication it has next to zero civilian use.

I incorrectly assumed those left and right hash marks were for windage. Admittedly the gap between them and the center triangle aiming point was baffling. Like I said above, this reticle came out after I my absolutel obsession with the ACOG turned into an absolute obsession with red dots. Specifically, the T1, and now the T2. Turns out there is a lot of confusion about what those side hash marks are actually for. This video discusses it at about 8:30min in. With that in mind, I would just stick with the TA31F for a 14.5 to 16" AR15. The reticle in it gives you all the information you are going to need for that length rifle when compared to other choices. Most people are pretty familiar with it so you won't have any trouble finding information on it and tutorials on how to properly use it online.

(3) Trijicon TA31RCO Scope Review: The ACOG Used By The USMC & US Army (HD) - YouTube

[jarhead714]

The side hashmarks are what I was talking about in my long winded post.😉

[Dr.Mavashi]

Can’t find any solid information if ACOGs would work with DNT HS225 Hydra clip on …

[tacticalcity]

This video discusses these thermal optics and he likes them. Best Thermal Scope For Under $800? - Is the DNT Hydra Any Good? - YouTube

As I suspected, however, no it won't work for you. Not the cheaper model at least. The $800 version has a 3x minimum magnification. It would work best with a LPVO at 1x or a red dot at 1x. The 4x magnification of the ACOG combined with the 3x magnification of the clip-on will be an issue. You are going to want a clip-on with a minimum magnification as close to 1x since you are starting at 4x. When it comes to thermal you also want as much resolution and as high of a refresh rate as you can afford.

That said, since I am a red dot guy, this might actually work for me. Traditional thermal devices don't usually work well with just a red dot. They usually require some magnification. This optic flips the script. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. My only concern is resolution and refresh rate. I'll want to do more research first. But it is very appealing.