Night Vision

[wintersborn]

Good point about the light flare.
I think I read that the digital NV devices do not flare but I will look into it.

Would you still get depth perception issues if it was a zero magnification large mm monocular ? I would think it would be simular to looking through a red dot while moving ?

I dont know if I like the idea of a big flash light yelling "I am over here please shoot me" :P

[D.M.C.]

wintersborn, I used to scoff at the idea of tactical lights, and the concept of a wall of light. I became a convert after seeing the applications and correct use of light to disorient, illuminate, and identify targets in a darkness scenario. There really is no way to describe it other than to see for yourself. Rule #4 after all is to be sure to identify your targets. If by spotlighting or strobing, you can simultaneously disorient a potentially hostile target while making sure if it *is* hostile or not, then you've achieved two goals with one stroke. Ultimately it's your call, but I do think that for someone whose primary goal is not moving to contact, that NVG/NOD's are not the practical answer for you, and would end up harming more than they would help.

[CavTrooper]

For the cost of good night vision you can probably get some good training or at least a whole bunch of ammo and range time.

[ScottsBad]

Night vision is of interest to me for defensive observation, not as much as an aiming device. I've been looking at the Gen 3 Pinnacle PVS-14 monocular, however, intensifier type night vision has drawbacks as noted in previous posts. Bloom from bright light being the number one problem.

So, I was also considering heat activated infrared scopes such as the FLIR. However, the FLIR also has some drawbacks, but the ability to identify heat signitures in light so low that even a Gen 3 scope cannot easily provide enough contrast to see.

I understand that the military now has a scope that uses both a light intensifier and heat detector, but we don't get those.

Anyway, has anyone used newer versions of these two types of night vision tecnology? And can you shed some...(wait for it)...light on the strenghts and weaknesses of light intensifiers vs. heat detection devices?

I've seen a new FLIR for marine use that can be purchased for less than $2500. With a higher resolution version for ~$4000. Actually this is a heck of a price decrease considereing what these types of devices cost a couple of years ago.

Cheers--
Scott

[brando]

Night Vision is all about light intensification, so zero illumination will require IR lighting. Wearing NV reduces your field of view and depth perception, unless you're using the latest dual tube setup (but those start at $10k and go up to $20k). Either way, they are very effective in the observation category but require training and illumination to be an effective tool for night fighting.

Thermal is really coming into its own these days and it has many advantages over image intensification. However, it also has some disadvantages. Image Intensification just takes existing light and amplifies it. Thermal registers the thermal radiation within the FOV so you can more easily spot isolated individuals (ie guys hiding in the brush) than with NV. However, if someone is standing behind a window, say sitting in a vehicle or looking out of a building at you, a thermal sight will not see them. On top of that, there is no laser aiming system for thermal, so it is purely an observational system.

This is reason for the move to create a NV/Thermal fusion system. Either way, both have pros and cons and require some time and effort to use effectively. NV is much cheaper to acquire but expensive if you want to make it a night fighting solution. It's much easier to use a NV monocular for observation but rely on traditional low light gear (ie visible laser and illumination) for home defense.

[brando]

I should stress how important having IR illumination is with NV - a laser (either visible or IR) is actually a secondary need. If you can't see your target, you can't shoot it. You'd be amazed how difficult it can be to spot targets under NODs. Even though the light is being amplified, even modest concealment can easily defeat NV. An illuminator makes all the difference and obviously it should be an IR light, otherwise there's no point to having NV in the first place. Adding a laser is the last step to creating a truly useful night fighting capability. It effectively lets you target without having to have a proper cheekweld (among other things), something that can be difficult when wearing NODs. They can be bulky, unwieldy and generally uncomfortable.

And to make the case for monocular NODs like the PVS-14, it all comes down to focal distance and ambient light. Try wearing single tube goggles like the PVS-7B and you'll know what I'm talking about. You will lose focus the moment you clumsily look down at your gear to figure out why your mag is stuck in the pouch or you're trying to unhook yourself from that annoying branch that just snagged itself in your MOLLE. Having a monocular setup allows you to use your unaided eye for up close issues - kind of the best of both worlds.

PS. never ride motorcycles with PVS-7s. You will eventually get busted ribs or worse...

[ScottsBad]

I should stress how important having IR illumination is with NV - a laser (either visible or IR) is actually a secondary need. If you can't see your target, you can't shoot it. You'd be amazed how difficult it can be to spot targets under NODs. Even though the light is being amplified, even modest concealment can easily defeat NV. An illuminator makes all the difference and obviously it should be an IR light, otherwise there's no point to having NV in the first place. Adding a laser is the last step to creating a truly useful night fighting capability. It effectively lets you target without having to have a proper cheekweld (among other things), something that can be difficult when wearing NODs. They can be bulky, unwieldy and generally uncomfortable.

And to make the case for monocular NODs like the PVS-14, it all comes down to focal distance and ambient light. Try wearing single tube goggles like the PVS-7B and you'll know what I'm talking about. You will lose focus the moment you clumsily look down at your gear to figure out why your mag is stuck in the pouch or you're trying to unhook yourself from that annoying branch that just snagged itself in your MOLLE. Having a monocular setup allows you to use your unaided eye for up close issues - kind of the best of both worlds.

PS. never ride motorcycles with PVS-7s. You will eventually get busted ribs or worse...

LOL ... How do you know about busted ribs...eh eh? Thanks for the info. There are Thermal aiming scopes, but I'm looking for an observation device. My bigest problem right now is finding a FLIR, or better yet, a couple of different models of Flir to to check out. I want to see the difference in resolution and how they handle motion. I'm not going to spend between $2500 and $6000 on a scope that I don't know if I'll like.

Flir announced a little relatively inexpensive pocket monocular at CES (I think it was CES), but it won't be available until mid to late this year.

I talked to a guy at Flir, they are not particularly consumer friendly, they are used to sell to military, industry, and not regular consumers. I told the guy that if they want to sell consumer night vision equipment that they need to get their attitudes aligned. Getting info is like pulling teeth from these guys.

At least with intesifier technology there are retail vendors who are know the product they seel and how to deal with the average consumer. The Flir retail vendors don't seem to know anything either and they don't have product.

Flir needs to get their Sh*t together.

[brando]

Commercial thermal tech is still relatively new. Keep in mind, it wasn't too long ago that a mil grade thermal viewer required a refrigeration device (got a cool story about that, actually). The modern miniaturized models are just going to stay expensive for quite some time because the components are mass manufactured.

Instead of talking to FLIR, you might want to give Victor a call at TNVC

[KALIDAWG8996]

I hope you don't mean ATN...friends don't let friends use ATN.

VERY! True.....

[KALIDAWG8996]

If you're trying to find something along for the "Silence of the lambs" scenario or SOTL scenario....you're probably better off with a solid handheld or weaponlight then spending hundreds on a nightvision system but, to each his own.

You might still be able to find weapon mountable, PVS-4's that have 2nd Gen tubes for roughly $800. Many of these are US Made but, Israeli exported, and now U.S. surplus imports. These are good if you have a large farm or live in a wooded area and will take the shock of an AR platform. These can also be tripod mounted as well. Not good if you're looking for a SOTL scenario.

http://www.rubags.com/an-pvs-4-night-vision-gunsight-hunting-optic-scope.html

[Ronco]

Okay, I'll bite... What's wrong with ATN?

I hope you don't mean ATN...friends don't let friends use ATN.

[hadjin]

So, as I understand it after reading the Statute....

IR source lighting is illegal, but "Starlight", or light gathering, or illumination/magnification of any existing natural light is NOT illegal.

[jsragman]

I don't understand what he problem is with ATN. Have been using the GEN3+ WPT monocular for a year and is is outstanding. Why the monocular? It can be adapted to a scope, or binocular vision. If you get the binocs/ goggles, you are stuck with them, no scope or other accessories. Maybe the price is a bit much for some and causes sour grapes.

[brando]

It's not the price. ATN's products are notorious for quite the opposite reason: they're cheap crap. The fact that yours works well for you probably means your standards are just low in that regard.

A good technology breakdown can be found here:

http://www.tnvc.com/technology/

[Pthfndr]

A good technology breakdown can be found here:
http://www.tnvc.com/technology/

That is a great write up! Thanks.