WHICH SCOPE MOUNT TO PURCHASE?

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, folks...

I am on my next phase of building my rifle - the scope mounts.

I am getting a POF P-415 rifle with the full length Predator handrail. (From what I have heard, the Predator handrails are kind of high).

And if you have been following my posts, you will also know that I decided on the Meopta Meostar K-Dot for my scope.

So here's the question, which scope mount would best suite my needs? (I do not use a nose-to-charging-handle approach).

From what I have gathered, here are my options:


1) LaRue (Which height)?
2) JP Rifles (A bit cheaper than the Larue, but still good quality).
3) American Defense (I';ve heard good things about these mounts - but I hear they also have sharp edges).
4) Armalite (I hear they are pretty low-profile)
5) GG&G Accucam

I would prefer not to have QD mounts (I won't be removing it, and it prevents a theft while I am not watching it), but that is negotiable.

What do yall think?

In Christ: Raymond

[esskay]

Raymond, Is this rifle intended primarily as a "game gun" i.e. for 3-gun? If so, wondering why you are going with a gas-piston gun? Benefits of a gas piston gun aren't as relevant for 3-gunning in particular, and DI guns are well-refined and great for 3-gunning.

For 3-gun, personally I'd be looking for a sub-MOA build. I like short & light so I have a 16" barrel but most go with 18" barrels. JP VTAC rifle length handguard lets you get your support hand way out forward, and works better than the "cheese grater" railed handguards for 3-gun, where you are often bracing on cover and attaching to barricades/etc.

As far as optics, most of those mounts are designed for typical flat tops. If you go with that raised rail, you'll probably want lower mounts. I run LaRue mounts, can't go wrong with LaRue mounts, but I don't think they make low ones?? GG&G seems to have a low one, no personal experience with them though. You could go with regular two-piece scope mounts like Badgers which are well regarded by precision rifle guys. Make sure you will have clearance for your Meopta w.r.t. the mounts when mounted that low on your rifle. Not sure about that, you should look into it. Here's a pic of a Meopta mounted in the typical way, notice the clearance between the LaRue scope mount and the Meopta. Some other one piece mounts don't have that forward offset that LaRue does, so perhaps they will clear properly. (btw, note this is an old pic i had handy - I have since swapped the midlength handguard on this rifle to a rifle-length and swapped to the extended eye-relief LaRue mount)


I like QD mounts, only disadvantage I see to them are heavier weight and more expensive. If you opt for fixed mounts, I'd do it for that reason -- lighter and potentially cheaper, and not for security reasons. If where you shoot, you're really worried about theft of your optic when your rifle is unattended, I'd be more worried about the entire rifle growing legs and disappearing! You probably don't want to leave your rifle unattended at all then.

[jmf_tracy]

la rue FTW!
sorry, don't know which height.

[maxicon]

Here's a thread on the pros and cons of the Predator rail:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137247

If it's higher than the standard rail, the only mount that makes sense is the Armalite, which is the lowest good-quality 1 piece mount.

It doesn't have a lot of forward offset and most BUIS won't mount under it, but that doesn't matter on the Predator because you can move the mount forward if you want, and a standard BUIS won't work on a high rail.

The other option would be to go with rings. You can get whatever height you want (the goal is to have the scope centerline around 1.4-1.6" above the standard rail, or 2.5-2.7" above the bore), and you can position the scope further forward than on a standard flat top.

The other mounts will be pretty high, but some people don't mind that.

[RaymondMillbrae]

Thanks, guys.

As for the "why's?" of my weapon...for Home Defense.

All my weapons are primarily for home defense. The fact that I am trying my hand at 3-gun is to make myself proficient with my weapons. (Same with pistol, same with shotgun).

I ordered the 14.5" POF barrel. (Sixteen inch with the break attached). The Meopta fit both applications perfectly (home defense and 3-gunning), so I knocked-out 2 birds with one stone.

From what I gather, the lower the better, huh?

It looks like the LaRue, and all the others, are pretty much 1.5" over the rail. The Armalite seems to be the lowest at 1.25" over the rail.

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: What is BUIS?

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, folks...

here's the deal.

I ended-up going with the LaRue LT-104 mounts. (Yea, yea...I know yall knew I would end up here anyways).

My other LaRue options were 2-piece rings (which are not what I wanted), and the LT-158. The difference between the LT-104 and the LT-158, was that the LT-158 had a 10 MOA offset - geared towards higher-power rounds like the .308, etc... (It was also a tiny 6/100th of an inch lower).

I would have preferred a LOWER TO BORE scope mount, but since I do not use the "nose-to-charging-handle" method, I do not foresee any problems with this. And since I will not be shooting more that 300 yards here in the SF Bay Area..."alles cla". (For you Germany stationed folks).

The LaRue guy I spoke to was ex-military, and he was also very helpful. I appreciated the extra time he took to answer my questions and help me to reason-out my best options. (By the way, the screws need to be torqued to 30 PSI).

In the end, I walked away with the LaRue LT-104 for $184.00, shipped to my door.

Can't beat that!

LaRue...good folks, great service.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: I also wanted to touch on the fact that I was aware that this topic had been spoken-on before. But with all my searching and reading, I wanted opinions on the above-mentioned scope mounts. (Which were the ones I was SPECIFICALLY looking at). I was glad to hear a few constructive opinions and thoughts on my specific choices. Kudos!

[RaymondMillbrae]

Man...you guys are killing me!!!

I was meditating on the height of the POF Predator, and then thinking about the LaRue LT-104 scope mount...and I was not at peace.

I was also thinking about how the scope rings were mounted forward (in order to give eye relief), and I came to the conclusion that I did not need that.

As was pointed out earlier, the Predator is a FULL LENGTH RAIL system. (Picatinny rail from the charging handle, all the way to the end of the end of the hand guard). So all this "eye-relief design" was a moot point for me, as I could just move the scope forward as far as I wanted.

So I checked my account, and saw that LaRue had not charged me yet. Yesssssss...there was still a chance to catch them before they shipped the scope mount.

So I called them a few minutes ago (0615 California time), and changed my order.

I decided on a 2-piece QR scope mount. (SIMILAR TO THESE, BUT A TAD LOWER).

I figured that the Predator rail would be a 1/2" inch taller than normal, so I ordered a set of 2-piece QR scope mounts that would place me at the 1.4" inch mark. (A touch shorter than the 1.5" inches that the standard LT-104 places all the other scopes at).

They were the same price, so it was a 1-for-1 swap.

My cheek weld position will be better, and the scope will now be closer to the bore...which is always optimal.

I feel much better now.

Esskay & Maxicon, thank you for your reasoned-out responses and opinions!!!

In Christ: Raymond

[aplinker]

No, you do not need a cantilevered mount on the predator rail.

Scope mounting is about the only place that rail succeeds.

Anyways, if you don't need QD, then just buy regular rings.

The predator rail is less than 1/2" above a flat-top; you're likely to end up too low.

Centerline 1" above the rail could be an issue for the bell diameter, depending on objective size. The full-length rail means you have to keep above all the way out. I think you'd be better off asking POF their rail height above the flat-top.

[RaymondMillbrae]

UCLAPlinker,

I was aware of NOT needing the cantilevered mount.

The only weapon we shoot that needs one is my .308...when shooting at super long distances with it's limited BDC scope. We thought his .338 Lapua would need one also - but it shot pretty flat at all the distances we shoot at.

As for the scope not hitting the rail...the guys at LaRue said it would be fine for my Meopta.

As for it being too low for my cheek weld...I hope not.

I usually have my scopes fitted a little lower, and forward, than normal. (My buddy is always commenting on how weird I set-up my scopes). But I like my scopes close to the bore, and it also happens to be the most comfortable for me.

But in all truthfulness, this Predator rail system is new to me, so I am walking in unknown territory at the moment.

Hope it's not too low.

Time will tell.

In Christ: Raymond

[aplinker]

I think you're misunderstanding. Cantilevered refers to the ADM/LaRue style mounts that have enhanced relief.

You're thinking of a tapered base.

Hope it works out for you.

UCLAPlinker,

I was aware of NOT needing the cantilevered mount.

The only weapon we shoot that needs one is my .308...when shooting at super long distances with it's limited BDC scope. We thought his .338 Lapua would need one also - but it shot pretty flat at all the distances we shoot at.

As for the scope not hitting the rail...the guys at LaRue said it would be fine for my Meopta.

As for it being too low for my cheek weld...I hope not.

I usually have my scopes fitted a little lower, and forward, than normal. (My buddy is always commenting on how weird I set-up my scopes). But I like my scopes close to the bore, and it also happens to be the most comfortable for me.

But in all truthfulness, this Predator rail system is new to me, so I am walking in unknown territory at the moment.

Hope it's not too low.

Time will tell.

In Christ: Raymond

[esskay]

Thanks, guys.

As for the "why's?" of my weapon...for Home Defense.

All my weapons are primarily for home defense. The fact that I am trying my hand at 3-gun is to make myself proficient with my weapons. (Same with pistol, same with shotgun).

I ordered the 14.5" POF barrel. (Sixteen inch with the break attached). The Meopta fit both applications perfectly (home defense and 3-gunning), so I knocked-out 2 birds with one stone.

From what I gather, the lower the better, huh?

It looks like the LaRue, and all the others, are pretty much 1.5" over the rail. The Armalite seems to be the lowest at 1.25" over the rail.

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: What is BUIS?

Raymond,
Noticed you posted on Enos as well -- there's no better place to get feedback on competitive shooting than from there ... so I won't blather on too much more on that topic.

I'd just add one thought for you to consider -- optimizing setup & kit for a defensive rifle and for a 3-gun rifle do not totally coincide, so you will be making compromises on one end or another. To the extent you have an opportunity to build separate rifles (or at least two uppers to swap onto the same lower) for each specific role, that would be ideal.

With your choice of the POF upper in the configuration you described, you've already traded off toward the defensive role (e.g. 14.5" barrel = more maneuverable, handier, quicker to transition, but gives up velocity which might hurt you on long range flashers or make you short on power factor if you shoot a big match). But this totally makes sense because you should have a good defensive rifle setup before you start focusing on competition!

So if you're sticking with a single rifle for both purposes, I'd encourage prioritizing the defensive role in your build when you have trade offs to make. Example -- reliability is more important than minimizing recoil impulse by using a low-mass bolt carrier group and adjustable gas system tuned to the minimum needed to cycle the action (just an example, not really relevant to your gas piston setup).

And food for thought on the Meopta -- I love it for 3-gun but I wouldn't quite characterize it as a "perfect" fighting optic. While it can get the job done, it has a couple key disadvantages in that role:
(1) red dot sights rule the day in CQB applications, and their unlimited eye relief & (almost) parallex free makes their use in alternate positions (e.g. shooting from your support side, urban prone, etc) much easier than with a traditional optic like the Meopta. You can get it done with the Meopta, since it has generous eye relief and a brightly lit reticle, but it's not as optimal for these situations as red dots. The Meopta will rule on longer range engagements. Short range would be more likely for me, but your situation might be different.
(2) low battery life - manufacturer states 80 hrs (do NOT forget to turn off the illumination!, and keep spare batteries on the gun!)
(3) heavy (ounces is pounds as they say)
And for a fighting optic, wish it had a more tactical type of reticle... but once you learn the sizes of the dot and posts in the K-Dot reticle you can sort of back into it for holdovers, little less useful for ranging. Again not ideal but can get the job done.

BUIS = backup iron sights (which you definitely should have on a defensive gun). I like Troy's.

[esskay]

Oh btw, elsewhere you were asking about the R&R racing throw lever.

Not a great pic but you can see how it is anodized black and relatively low profile (the other one looks slightly lower profile to me from the pics but I haven't compared them in person).

[RaymondMillbrae]

UCLAPlinker,

sorry about that.

I didn't meant to put words into your mouth. Evidently, I never realized the LT-104-style mounts are a "cantilever design". I thought "cantilever" meant something else - like canted to one side or another. Or canted fore or aft, etc... (I guess you learn something new every day).

Esskay,

you are correct. It is a HD weapon first. But I do not really foresee any problems with the shortness of the barrel, as here in the Bay Area we don't shoot all that far.

As a matter of fact, the FPS's lost will not make that much of a difference, as proper Kentucky windage and holdover will work wonders if done correctly. That, and the fact that I am now set-up to reload .223. (I've been reloading .45 ACP, 10mm, and .357 Magnum for years, and years). Custom rounds will work magic to make up for the lost , measly, 1.5" inches. (Lotz of shooters play with 16" inch barrels).

I also took into consideration the added weight of the scope, and I hope the weapon will be nice and balanced. (Short barrel and Predator rail in front, scope in the center, and the heavier Vltor EMOD in the rear). But if I find a decently-priced LTM SOPMOD Kit, I'll jump on that!

I'll find out when it's all put together.

I will also be adding a JP SRTS (Short Range Tactical Sight) onto the Predator handrail. This will help me with those really close shots, and still keep me in the 3-gun TACTICAL Division.

OK...I just got home, it's 0300 in the morning, and I have to be up early for a foreclosure. (I'm a locksmith/safe tech, and I am doing a foreclosure in Vallejo at 1000 hours).

Nuff said.

Thanks for tickeling dee brain.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Thanks for the pix EssKay