I think I need a riser (or taller rings)?

[glock_this]

A couple of no-cost options: either get rid of the BUIS or move the BUIS in front of the scope. The BUIS in front of the optics might sound weird, but it is an accepted practice. Mostly I see this setup in competition ARs.

yep, I totally thought about this.. BUT, then when you need it you need to (1) move it and (2) re-zero and sight it in and that seemed not an ideal way to roll.

[Santa Cruz Armory]

Here's what I went with:

Burris P.E.P.R. and a Bushnell 10X40 Elite 3200 mildot.

[glock_this]

I like it, looked at it, but would not work for me.

Burris PEPR = the rings are to wide edge to edge to fit in my 3.2" of tube space to work with, plus it claims only 1.59" to center line, so just not tall enough

[maxicon]

Hey thanks...

couple questions... looking at my setup, should I even address this? I 'think" I should as it seems eye relief is to far IF I go by measurements, more so when the stock is fully deployed, as I reported in my first post. But I am not 100% sure being 6" away (when they claim 3.9") is a bad thing? Also, wanting to get above the BUIS seems like a logical need, but maybe not? I wonder if, in the end, I raise this up above the BUIS and try to move it closer to my eye - I will have a different set of issues I am not considering?

If you get too far outside the eye relief area (called the eyebox), you won't have a good field of view. Too far back, and your view through the scope will be a blob of magnified light floating in a ring of black. Give it a try and you'll see what I mean.

Most inexpensive scopes don't have a real forgiving range of eye relief. The exact spacing is different for everyone, though, and totally depends on your stock and shooting style. Some people like the eyepiece behind the charging handle, other (like me) need it in front of the charging handle).

As Knight suggested, the BUIS can go in front of the scope, however, this will reduce your sight radius (a longer sight radius is important to iron sight accuracy) and will make the field of view through the sight much smaller, which some people are ok with, and others aren't.

Second, both the Warne and Millett say "Extra High" on Optics Planet but give no measurements on what that means? why would they just say "extra high" and call that useful info? On the Warne site it says the A204L is "ultra high" at .935"... but is that to CL or bottom of tube? The Millett AL00722 says 1.025" - so, does it seem in the end, to clear that BUIS, I would need these types of 'extra high' rings AND a riser like the little YHM mini risers I was looking at that add .50" - thats what UglyDwarf made it sound like - so then you are at about a 2.0 center line??? 1.025+.50 (for 1" tube) + .50 for YHM riser.

Yeah, lack of measurements is a huge gap in optics. You really need to know these numbers to make the right decision, and they're not always easy to find.

The Warne and Millett are both spec'ed to the bottom of the ring. You can tell by looking at the low ring heights, which are 0.250". Since the centerline has to be at least 0.5" for a 1" ring, these heights are to the bottom of the ring. Other vendors, like Leupold, spec centerline heights.

So, the Warne is 1.435" centerline, and the Millett is 1.525" - just about right for an AR with a low BUIS - and would both be close to 2" with a half-inch riser.

You have a few choices here:

- Pick a riser or rail, double-check the height, and buy rings that give the correct height, or use your current ones if they'll do. For a typical 0.5" riser, you'd need 1.25" centerline rings to get to 1.75". This is actually a pretty hard height to find, since most rings for traditional rifles don't go over 1", and then there's a big jump to 1.4-1.5" for AR rings. Burris XTR come in 1.25" centerline, but they're too wide for your scope.

If you get a taller riser, like the Brownell's in 0.75", you could use 1" centerline rings, but that's starting to add up.

- Get a lower BUIS. The YHM's a good BUIS, but is high. The ARMS 40L or Troy are better bets, though pricey.

- Since you can't co-witness with a magnified scope, leave the BUIS off for now, mount up the scope, and start shooting with it. You'll have to take the scope off to use the irons anyway, so it's just a few more steps to put the sights back on and shoot a few sighters, if the irons were zeroed before.

This will give you a good idea of what you'll want long term. It's not uncommon to spend a lot making a particular setup work, only to find out you don't like it - this is why you can buy lots of AR gear cheap that's only slightly used!

- Get a different scope that will allow you to use a wider range of mounts. That may be the best bet, if you can get a decent price for your old scope, since your scope is what's limiting your choices here.

If it were me, I'd make a list of my options and add up the price to implement each, as well as noting the pros and cons, then do whichever one made the most sense.

Personally, I'd leave the irons off and shoot the scope with rings and maybe the YHM or some other inexpensive riser. This will let you figure out where the scope needs to be, and once you've got it in a good position, you can see what your mount and BUIS options are.

[glock_this]

a plethora of great info.. thanks! Glad to read the experience I am having is not because I am a tard & missing it, but because of the choices, or lack-there-of, for my setup and for the odd fact sizing details are so hard to find.

I am thinking right now that I really would like to leave the rear BUIS in place. I really do, for right now, want to work around it. SO, given all I have read/researched I think I will try the following:

(1) shoot it as it is mounted now and find out just how much that longer than spec'd eye relief I am using is an issue with this scope - or no issue. I can see past the rear BUIS as it is no issue so it is not like I 'need' to have the scope above it. I just 'want' it up so I can close the eye relief to closer to what is spec'd (3.9" versus my 5.5") and get the entire mount up on the flat top upper and get it over the BUIS.

(2) IF as it is, the eye relief is an issue I find out, as right now it is as close to me as it could ever be given that BUIS & the lack of room to play on the scopes tube, I will buy the YHM mini spacers and gain that .50" which will give me - a rather high - 2" to center line (since we know the 1.75" I really only need is nearly impossible to gain in available sizes of mounts/rings/risers). The YHM mini spacers will then give plenty to clear the rear BUIS and allow me to toy with eye relief actually. kill 2 birds with 1 stone to get that height with the only option that really seems reasonable given this scope and my rear BUIS and my budget all as factors. AND, this option would be less than $30 fix. (though I would love a tall enough single mount with QD).

BTW, this scope was a trade with a buddy, so no money in it BUT I know it is a budget scope so I am not going to spend mad money trying to get the darn thing to work as it makes no sense. To me, I would rather learn right now on this free budget scope all the nuances of a scope and THEN pick a really nice adjustable scope (like a Trijicon Accupoint) and high end 1 piece mount w/ QD.

[rumble phish]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm still trying to figure out why you are worried about keeping your BUIS on your AR with a magnified scope? You can't co-witness them, so why even worry about it? Sight in your BUIS and make a note of which slot it was mounted on when sighted in then take it off. When you remount it, it should return to zero (pretty much) if it hasn't been played with.

I think you're just making this harder than it needs to be....

[glock_this]

as I said, it is an option, but my doing it this way is just a choice at this time. but I reserve the right to change my mind

[maxicon]

Yeah, sounds like a plan.

There's no substitute for getting out there and putting rounds downrange with whatever setup you go with - that's the best way to figure out what works for you. Advice is great, but I figured all this stuff out by trying a bunch of solutions that didn't work.

I'd recommend taking along the tools to move and remove all the different bits, in case you decide to try something different after the first few mags.

Be sure to keep us posted on how it works out!

[glock_this]

yep.. exactly what I plan to do... for sure will report back.

[bubbapug1]

You can buy a leapers or similar see through brand riser for around $22.00. A simple one costs $16.00...one with side rails on the riser would run you $22.00.

Midway carries them...I bought one at riflegear in Costa Mesa if you live near there.

With a see through riser you can still use your iron sights and also the scope.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=491438

[glock_this]

thanks.. yes, very familiar with these types of riser mounts. yes, it would work. but, because of the fact the top rail has the BUIS, these full length risers would hang over the upper rail onto the quad rail. which is no big deal really, but also just unneeded material. So, the YHM mini risers only need the width of 1 rail notch so would fit right under the rings so I get the height, I get no unneeded material, and I get both mounts on the upper rail.

[maxicon]

The see-through aspect of these risers doesn't really work on an AR - that's leftover marketing from traditional rifles, where the sights are close to the bore.

In order to use a see-through mount on an AR, it would have to have a see-through channel 1.4" above the rail. This would require the scope to be mounted above that, so your centerline would be well over 2" above the rail.

The AR equivalent is a carry handle and a see-through mount on top of it, so you can use the carry handle sights through the mount channel. Some people shoot red dots this way, but I find it to be impractical for a magnified scope, as there's no way to get a good cheekweld.

Here's an example of what this looks like on an AR. You could drop the scope a little more with ultra-low rings, but you're limited by the scope eyepiece blocking the iron sights if you go too low.

I did this to get groups, but it's not something you'd want to shoot routinely.

[glock_this]

you know.. given the fact there are a lot of ARs with carry handles and you can buy scope mounts for them like that, that picture makes me realize that there must be a lot of people out there with scopes on mounts that have a center line greater than 2".. so the 2" I am looking to do (since I cannot get 1.75" right on) is not so absurd if I have to do it.

That one above looks like at least 3"?

[KaTooM]

I have been using my 3x9 scope on my carbine for kicks, It's mostly for my M1A NM setup. The ARMS #22 rings medium height work perfect on the DDM4 with the fold down BUIS. The full height ones would be to high for my setup.

[glock_this]

yes, that is exactly what I am envisioning I want to do in the end after I test it as it is now. YHM risers would do the same and for a lot less, but no QD levers.

I have the rings, so I would love an an affordable QD release mount that gives my added .50". I might give them a call tomorrow and just see what could mix/match together to meet my need - and see what it would cost me