scope mounting - lap or no? which rings?

[ekkthree]

noob questions

choices abound in 1" rings and altho i can accept that money buys quality, i have a hard time putting down for some top quality rings. is there anything worth owning around $50/pair?

also, what's the word on lapping new rings? is there no provision when mounting to take up play or to mate it better to the scope?

[ChuckDizzle]

I recently spent about $90 for a set of Warne QD rings. Exceptional quality and I've never had a Warne product let me down.

What type of rifle?

[Blade Gunner]

noob questions



choices abound in 1" rings and altho i can accept that money buys quality, i have a hard time putting down for some top quality rings. is there anything worth owning around $50/pair?



also, what's the word on lapping new rings? is there no provision when mounting to take up play or to mate it better to the scope?

[kcheung2]

noob questions

choices abound in 1" rings and altho i can accept that money buys quality, i have a hard time putting down for some top quality rings. is there anything worth owning around $50/pair?

also, what's the word on lapping new rings? is there no provision when mounting to take up play or to mate it better to the scope?

There is indeed a provision to mate it better to a scope - the method is by spending more money up front on quality rings.

[ekkthree]

So should i take that to mean that theres no decent rings for 50ish?

[Thanatos2203]

Agreed with quality rings meaning no need to lap. Personally I have never lapped scope rings, even on cheaper ones and have never had an issue. Perhaps it was my own ignorance but you get by just fine.

Not sure what your set up is, but the Burris Xtreme Tactical Rings are good, the Warne Maxima Rings are my favorite for a hunting rifle, and Talley Rings that mount directly to the receiver of your rifle are also a great lightweight set up for hunting.

[MyOdessa]

I've been using Burris Signature rings with plastic inserts for the past 15-20 years without any issues at all. Scope stays put and rings do not leave any marks on the scope. As an added bonus you can use insert kit to add elevation or windage to the scope without using up scope's internal adjustments. Obviously, does not require lapping. I get them off eBay now for $25 to $36. I also use Wheeler scope mounting kit with 1' and 30mm scope mounting bars to check ring alignment.

[NorCalFocus]

I'm running Leupold Gold rings on my .308 with a 6-24 Viper. I like lower profile rings vs the bulky tactical style. Cost was right at $50.

[Ki6vsm]

I've lapped a set of Leupold rings just for the heck of it on an old Winchester M54, to see what the process is like. These are the standard turn-in rings. Thing is, even the best rings might not line up perfectly if there is something a little off with the one or two-piece base they go onto. When I lapped them the process reveals pretty quickly what the high and low spots are. It's kind of satisfying to see that 'imperfection' go away. However, I can't say if the rifle actually shoots any better or the scope aims any truer.

[RCxRC]

I think Hairball said it the best, but let me elaborate on my own experiences:

I found I needed to lap a pair of factory CZ 452 .22 bolt action rifle rings, even after tightening them down with a quality alignment bar installed inside the rings. Upon first trying to tighten down the ring screws on a scope the rings left minor but unacceptable marks on the scope tube from a lack of finishing inside the rings.

Lapping revealed one of the rings also wasn't square in the dovetail and I ended up taking it down where perhaps 60% of the rear ring and a tiny amount of the front ring had some material removed. I am now confident the scope tube isn't being twisted. The initial marks made to the scope definitely have affected any future resale value. Thankfully it was not a terribly expensive scope (Nikon BDC rimfire, approx. $100-140 scope). If I had not already had a lapping kit in my toolbox, I probably would have been ~ "OK" with the original outcome as I wouldn't expect to remove the scope as long as I owned the rifle.

I definitely had to lap a pair of factory Ruger dovetail rings for a Mini-14. They put terrible scratches and gouges on a scope (fortunately also a cheaper Nikon BDC 600, approx. $140) while I was trying to adjust it. Lapping stopped that from getting any worse. The damage done was nothing short of a crime. Even for that inexpensive of a scope my conscience couldn't bear the thought of what those rings did to that scope. Of course, while I already had a lapping kit by then, hitting the rings lightly with a bit of sandpaper or a dremel along the outer edges first might have cured the worst of the damage they caused. In other words, a lapping kit wasn't totally necessary (hey, its a Mini). My fault for not breaking out the lapping kit or hitting the outer ring edges with sandpaper to begin with.

The modern, higher quality mounts/ rings I've used on my better quality rifles didn't seem to have any issues unless the alignment was off slightly after being tightened down to the base / rail, which is rare. Warne QD rings, Badger rings and a Spuhr 1 piece were very well finished, aligned perfectly, left no undue marks, and did not need any further finishing by me.

I found an American Defense AD Recon mount (intended for an AR) was not really a solid one-piece deal and the rings were held together to the base with separate screws for each ring (in other words, the rings were "clamped" to the center rail/base). As a result the rings could and would move independently of each other no matter how tight the screws were. Perhaps "good enough" for someone just trying to look Tacti-cool and not shooting out past 100-200 yds (if they ever actually get to a range more than once a year or two), but not for what I intended it for.

A caveat...understand I am not trying to come off like a scope-mounting snob. I have an old Marlin 336 30-30 lever action I bought used over 20 years ago along with a discontinued model sale Weaver 3x9 that I happily mounted in some very old Weaver rings I found in a discount bin without worrying about lapping and used only a rudimentary reticle alignment tool (predecessor to the Segway Reticle Leveler). Same with a Ruger 10-22 with a Tasco scope in Tasco rings. As long as the scope is not blatantly twisted/mis-aligned, I could really care less if a $60 scope (at least that's what I paid for the Tasco about 20 years ago) gets scratched or dinged slightly as long as it still shoots ok at the shorter distances we're talking about here. Up until I tried Hornady Lever Revolution ammo in my 30-30, it was at best a 3 MOA, 150 yd rifle. The Hornady ammo cut that down by at least half, and perhaps it is now a 250 yarder (realistically 200 yd energy wise). Still well under minute-of-pig.

Watch a few Y.T. videos from Brownells or Midway to see how lapping is done, then decide if you really need it, wish to buy your own lapping kit, or simply pay a decent gunsmith (Wilkerson in Van Nuys is one) to do it for you, if it is worth your investment.

I have over a dozen long guns (and have sold off more than that) and it was worth it for me to buy a lapping kit and learn how to do it myself. If I was just starting out and didn't know how far into the hobby I was going to go, or was just planning on buying a few long guns over the long term, then leave it to a gunsmith and don't invest a bunch of money in equipment you may only use a couple of times during your lifetime and will collect dust sitting on a shelf. That is unless "tinkering" and minor gunsmithing (and perhaps eventually reloading) is part of the draw of this hobby / sport for you, versus being at the range shooting.

[ekkthree]

yeah, that's where i'm not really buying into it.
there's the gun, the rail, the rings, then the scope. on top of that is age of the gun itself.
i would think that all of those could be absolutely top notch and still you have 3 different interfaces that have to be perfectly square for the rings to be the weak point. the way i understood it, the better rings would hold with minimal flex or give, but logically, i don't see how spuhr rings would square any better than vortex rings if the base or gun is off.

myodessa - i'll look into those burris rings. it sounds like they use a crush ring/spherical washer type setup to allow adjustments?

[ekkthree]

or simply pay a decent gunsmith (Wilkerson in Van Nuys is one) to do it for you,

we cross posted.
that makes sense. is this a do-it-while-you-wait kinda thing or do you drop it off?
i may just get a decent, but not boutique, set of rings and see how things pan out at the range before deciding.

[MyOdessa]

myodessa - i'll look into those burris rings. it sounds like they use a crush ring/spherical washer type setup to allow adjustments?

I don't know which type you are looking for, but you can read reviews and get details on them from these places, but if you are patient prices are way better on eBay:

Burris

Midway

Amazon

[crufflers]

is there anything worth owning around $50/pair?

The Warne rings many people mentioned are $25-$50 - I have some one a Ruger PC Carbine. They seem solid. I have Lightweight Talley on a couple of .308 bolt guns and I like them - they replace the base and rings. They are in the price range, especially if you find them at Midway or Amazon. Lapping could only help unless it was bubba'd, but some swear certain brands do not need lapping because they are so perfect out of the package.

[RCxRC]

I think you've got it. Besides the issue of "stacking tolerances", there's no use spending on high end anything unless its going on something worth it, which usually translates into better machined and aligned receivers, bases, etc. That's why I didn't pay up for better rings than the included factory ones on the Mini-14. It's a 2.5" MOA rifle at best no matter what I do to it or shoot out of it. Even with an adjustable gas block and strut added to the barrel the best I've ever had with it was a 1-1/2" group. The money spent wasn't worth the investment of $200+ in parts for an approximately 1" decrease in group size.

The Spuhr is on a $1700 tactical-style rifle along with a Bushnell HDMR-2 scope, the Badgers are on a $1500+ M1A National Match with a SWFA SS 10x42, and the Warne is on a $1300+ LWRC AR rifle with a Trijicon 1-8x Accu-Power scope, ...you get the idea. The only reason I kind of "cheaped out" on the M1A scope is that it is built to military specs by the same mfg who made a run for the military a while back (and presumably still meets Mil-Spec), and a fixed power is suggested for a semi-auto rifle with a lot of major harmonics issues (M1A, AK, etc) due to op rods banging around, etc.

I don't know if Dean can do same-day stuff. You'd have to check directly with him. Sometimes I can get Alan Tanaka in Gardena to do same-day, but it is rare and it has to be a quick job, or else its a 2 month + wait.

Turners has a basic scope mounting service, as do many gun shops. They basically will use a collimator (Leupold, BSA, etc) and Wheeler scope leveling kit to align the reticle and torque down to spec. That'll get you on paper. I can't recall what they charge. I haven't used them for this, but I've seen them do a job or two.