Thoughts on this scope, magnification choice

[Mountain Max]

Been thinking about getting this Leupold VX-6 3-18x50mm

http://www.opticsplanet.com/leupold-vx-6-3-18x50mm-riflescope.html

I don't think I would use 18x, but probably 12-14x at the highest. I noticed when checking out scopes in person that if I maxed out the magnification it was much more difficult to find the "sweet spot" in regards to eye relief. If I dialed down 2-4x, it seemed to be better. Is there any validity to this concept? If I want better eye relief at a certain magnification, should my max scope magnification be higher than that?

Also, is this leupold a good pick for the money? Any others I should check out? It will be mostly for target shooting, perhaps a hunt or two in the future.

Thanks

[ExtremeX]

It depends on what you want in a target scope... I really like the 5-20x50 and 6-24x50 magnification ranges for target use. I also like exposed turrets and FFP reticle... illumination isn't something I have ever used in a target optic so I wouldn't go out of the way to get a scope that has it.

For that type of money there are other options that I would take over that like the SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 and the Viper PST 6-24x50. You can also get into a used Vortex Razor 5-20x50 for that amount. The Bushnell g2dmr is right in that ballpark as well and also very popular option.

If you want a hunting rifle, then build it as one, but its very difficult to get the two (hunting/target) to overlap without giving something up for the other.

[HK Dave]

It depends on what you want in a target scope... I really like the 5-20x50 and 6-24x50 magnification ranges for target use. I also like exposed turrets and FFP reticle... illumination isn't something I have ever used in a target optic so I wouldn't go out of the way to get a scope that has it.

For that type of money there are other options that I would take over that like the SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 and the Viper PST 6-24x50. You can also get into a used Vortex Razor 5-20x50 for that amount. The Bushnell g2dmr is right in that ballpark as well and also very popular option.

If you want a hunting rifle, then build it as one, but its very difficult to get the two (hunting/target) to overlap without giving something up for the other.

What he said.

You can do SO much better for the money than that leupold.

[Mountain Max]

What would be the primary differences between a hunting and target rifle? I'm guessing a target rifle isn't designed for quick aquisition at closer range because of a higher base magnification. I'm also guessing it has something to do with turrets and reticle. What else am I missing?

A little more info: this is going on an AR pattern 308 with a 20 inch black hole barrel. I guess if anything it's more of a tactical setup, but I really want to maintain close range versatility (3x magnification) at the cost of reaching out to 1000 yards (which would push the limits of the cartridge and my novice skills, emphasis on being novice)

[ExtremeX]

Rifle and optic are two separate things... hunting rifles generally have an overall lighter weight with a light weight barrel contour. Target rifles are generally heavy barrel setups.

If you have a rifle that can adapt to both roles, great, but its the optic and ammo that really drives the application.

If you want something a bit more general purpose then your original instinct regarding magnification range were on point... I would be open to the 1-6x, 1-8x, and 2.5-10x type optics as well if you want to maintain really good close in performance.

Even within those mag ranges each manufacture can setup the scope in different ways... capped vs uncapped turrets, BDC vs Scale reticles, SFP vs FFP... I have a very strong preference towards uncapped mil-scale reticles with side parallax and FFP. Those scopes are generally more target orientated vs something with a BDC and capped turrets. Personal preference stars to play a role here as well. Contrast that with a simple hunting scope and you will probably find a very simple duplex reticle with capped turrets built on a 1" tube.

Some optics also weight a lot more than others... so you might want to keep the overall size and weight into consideration depending on how you actually intend on using it. Most target setups with big scopes and heavy barrels; you wouldn't want to have to lug around hiking let alone running and gunning with it.

I know it can be a costly way to approach this, but its absolutely ok to own more than 1 optic for a rifle. I have 3 different optics that I use on 1 AR depending on what I want to do with it.

[Mountain Max]

I kinda like this Nikon. I have a 2-7x Nikon that has worked out really well.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/nikon-monarch-5-3-15x50-ed-sf-riflescope.html?_iv_code=NI-RS-SDF651-16355

I should be putting more $$ into ammo stockpiling anyway.

[penguin0123]

I don't think I would use 18x, but probably 12-14x at the highest. I noticed when checking out scopes in person that if I maxed out the magnification it was much more difficult to find the "sweet spot" in regards to eye relief. If I dialed down 2-4x, it seemed to be better. Is there any validity to this concept? If I want better eye relief at a certain magnification, should my max scope magnification be higher than that?

You are experiencing the "exit pupil", which can be mathematically idealized as the front objective (50mm in this case) divided by magnification (18x). This means the ideal exit pupil is 2.8mm, and the practical exit pupil is somewhere south of that. That means the entire image projected at the proper eye relief is only 2.8mm in diameter. Human pupil size varies, but goes from 3-4mm in bright sunlight to 8mm in dim light. You can see why it become hard to center up behind the scope.

A small exit pupil isn't a bad thing though, because it forces you to center up "perfectly" which will eliminate parallax error even if the scope does not have parallax adjustment. The max parallax error is a function of the front objective and distance (forgot formula right now); the larger the front objective and longer the distance, the more error you can have.

Depending on your use, you need to ask yourself:
1) How often do I need high mag?
2) How often do I shoot at ranges that need parallax adjustments.



For myself, I use a 2.5-10x32 for general purpose / tactical shooting out to 800m on man sized targets on a sling. Because I'm not shooting Fclass, things like parallax are dwarfed by my shooting and wind reading ability. And because I'm shooting man sized targets, I don't need high mag. I ended up with a scope that had fixed parallax and I don't mind it one bit.

[penguin0123]

Also, is this leupold a good pick for the money? Any others I should check out? It will be mostly for target shooting, perhaps a hunt or two in the future.

Requirements are not well defined here. What distance? What animal (prairie dog vs. elk)? What target (steel gong vs. F class)?

Leupold isn't bad. At one point, I had Leupold MK4, NF NXS, Burris XTRII, and others on my desk. Believe it or not, I couldn't tell you the difference between Leopold and NF glass. I've never looked thru VX6 glass, but they should be head and shoulders above that 2000s technology that is the MK4. Once you get near the $2k range, start looking at Euro stuff.

[Mountain Max]

You are experiencing the "exit pupil", which can be mathematically idealized as the front objective (50mm in this case) divided by magnification (18x). This means the ideal exit pupil is 2.8mm, and the practical exit pupil is somewhere south of that. That means the entire image projected at the proper eye relief is only 2.8mm in diameter. Human pupil size varies, but goes from 3-4mm in bright sunlight to 8mm in dim light. You can see why it become hard to center up behind the scope.

A small exit pupil isn't a bad thing though, because it forces you to center up "perfectly" which will eliminate parallax error even if the scope does not have parallax adjustment. The max parallax error is a function of the front objective and distance (forgot formula right now); the larger the front objective and longer the distance, the more error you can have.

Depending on your use, you need to ask yourself:
1) How often do I need high mag?
2) How often do I shoot at ranges that need parallax adjustments.



For myself, I use a 2.5-10x32 for general purpose / tactical shooting out to 800m on man sized targets on a sling. Because I'm not shooting Fclass, things like parallax are dwarfed by my shooting and wind reading ability. And because I'm shooting man sized targets, I don't need high mag. I ended up with a scope that had fixed parallax and I don't mind it one bit.

That explains what I wanted to know! Thanks. So it would seem that it wouldn't matter if I went with a higher magnification, I would experience the same exit pupil regardless of the max magnification. I suppose then for my preferences (quicker scope acquisition) I would want a 50mm objective. I wouldn't be doing any competition target shooting etc. The only hunting I could see myself doing would be Deer or Pig, which is why I would like something that can go to 3x. I have no experience shooting long range and I'm guessing it will be a while before I ever got to a higher level.

[penguin0123]

I would experience the same exit pupil regardless of the max magnification.

I'm sure that was just a wording thing, but I want to emphasis that front objective divided by current magnification is exit pupil. So for 50mm front objective, exit is 25mm at 2x, 10mm at 5x, 5mm at 10x, etc. That's why all the high mag scopes have large FO.

[penguin0123]

I suppose then for my preferences (quicker scope acquisition) I would want a 50mm objective. I wouldn't be doing any competition target shooting etc. The only hunting I could see myself doing would be Deer or Pig, which is why I would like something that can go to 3x. I have no experience shooting long range and I'm guessing it will be a while before I ever got to a higher level.

You also need to think about weight. A few oz don't seem like much, but the "swingability" of the gun depends on the moment of inertia which is force (weight) times the moment arm (distance between the CG of your body and the CG of the rifle). So a few oz times maybe 1.5ft makes a big difference. As far as acquisition, were you playing with the scope mounted to a rifle or just trying to get behind it when holding the scope in your hand? Having a consistent cheek weld really helps.

I don't hunt, but I would imagine pig is <100m "target of opportunity" shots and deer isn't taken past 300m. In that case, look at 1-4 or 1-6 scopes. Dial it down to 1x for pig and it works like red dot, and dial it up for deer on a distance shot. I would guess your requirements are similar to 3gun use, so take a look at what they use.

Leupold VX6 1-6x24mm
Trijicon 1-4 or 1-6
Vortex Razor 1-6
Swaro Z6i
Kahles 1-6
etc

[Divernhunter]

penguin0123---It shows you do not and have not hunted much. A bit of information. You can take close quick shots on 3X with no trouble. You get out to 300+ it is nice to have 9-10X.
The 1-4 and 1-6 scopes are good on an African DG rifle since most of the times you are under 50-100 yards and the thing just might be wanting to kill you.

For general hunting and casual shooting a 3-9X40 or 3.5-10X40 (or a 4.5-14x40 for a longer range hunting rifles....think mags) without any other adjustments and a duplex reticle is best. I have 3-9X40 and 3.5-10X40 scopes on most all my hunting rifles. I do have a 4.5X14X40 on my 257Weatherby since it is a long range pronghorn(and others) rifle used at 500-600+ yards. My varmint(squirrels and PD mostly) rifles are only used in fair weather and from a portable bench so they have 6.5-20X40 AO and 8-32X40 AO scopes with fine crosshair and 1/8 min dot.

You are correct with the weight and size stuff. One reason for not using a 50mm OB lens scope is it puts your head in an un-natural position ----too high---- which compromises the cheek weld which is important.
The way to tell if you have the correct size scope/rings and scope placement(fore and aft) is to close your eyes. Shoulder the rifle as if you are going to shoot(please use an empty rifle!) then open your eyes/eye. If you have to move your head even a fraction of an inch up/down or forward/backward the scope is not mounted correctly.
Another thing I see a lot is scopes mounted high. Scopes on hunting rifles(not AR or my 50 BMG rifles) should be mounted as low as possible. I have one rifle that you can just slip a business card between the scope and the barrel and it is one of my quickest pointing rifles having taken over 100 deer and some other animals. One reason beside it is not needed to not use a 20min rail or any riser on a hunting rifle. copes have plenty of internal adjustment for hunting.
Target turrets on a HUNTING scope are 1)stupid 2) can just get in the way and snag things 3) not needed for adjustments if the scope is properly set up to start with 4) could be used if you are in a long range blind or taking shots over 600 yards----but still not needed 5) can be accidently turned while hunting causing you to miss an animal. K.I.S.S.----see #1
Scope caps while hunting are bad also. Sooner or later if you hunt enough(spot and stalk especially) they will cost you an animal. I have a number of friends who thought differently and it happened to them. They now do as I do and carry a lens pen and/or small lens cloth in a pouch you can buy from Cabela's.
Lapping the rings is a good thing. Period!
Contrary to some peoples belief a 50mm lens(or larger) does not gather more light. Many 30mm tubes have 1" tube guts inside them so you also do not gain anything. Others the 30mm tube really only gives you more adjustment. The one over-riding factor on how well a scope transmits light is the QUALITY of the lens and construction internally of the scope. So many 40mm scope will actually do as well or better than a 50-56mm scope. Where you do gain is if the 50-56mm scope has excellent quality glass and construction.
Just remember as you get larger tubes and lens you have more weight, lees handling speed, and most important the scope has to be mounted higher which is not a good thing.

So there are my many years of experience/wisdom(?) for you to think about. If you read this consider yourself schooled on HUNTING scopes by Divernhunter.
Please understand target/some varmint scopes are a whole different school. Example I have Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X56 scopes on both of my 50BMG rifles. I have an 8-32X40 AO target turrets on a squirrel rifle.

penguin0123---Please understand that I am not picking on you/insulting you with this post. You DID state you do not hunt. I am trying to help those that do and not sure about choices. Example I saw a fellow at the range with a 30-06 and he had a 8-32X50(approx) scope with a cluttered reticle, scope caps, high mounts, exposed tall turrets that he thought was the cats meow for hunting deer in D6. I have hunted D6 even before the zones(1960's) and killed many deer. Only 2 were over 100 yards, many were moving, many very quick snap shots and all I have ever used was a 3-9X40 duplex reticle and never needed more or more complicated scope. He will be highly disappointed IF he even gets a shot with that scope someone convinced him was what he needed. The list of scopes you had would be a better choice than what he had. Your list would work but there are better choices.

[penguin0123]

^ Thanks for the info. I learned something.

I've never hunted anything in my life other than the x-ring. I do want to say that high bore axis doesn't necessarily mean slow pointing for me personally. I have an RMR above my scope on my AR and I barely get a chin weld on that RDS. I have no problem mounting the gun and having the dot on target. In some ways, I prefer a high mount for CQB work. I'm sure it won't be fun for precision work though.

[Divernhunter]

For a lesser recoiling rifle you might get by. When you try that with a mag like a 300win mag or more you probably will not want to do it twice
You might need to see a dentist also.

[Garand1911]

Buying a scope is a pain. I would look at lower magnification to get the field of view you are comfortable with, and quick reaction. But some room on the top end to get further out, or see smaller things.

Check these out.....
Nightforce SHV F1 Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 4-14x 50mm

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2268269262/nightforce-shv-f1-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-4-14x-50mm-first-focal-side-focus-illuminated-matte

or

Leupold Mark 4 4.5-14x50 mm

https://www.amazon.com/Leupold-4-5-14x50-Non-Illuminated-Reticle-Finish/dp/B000H6O1ZW