primary arms 4-14x44 ffp scope thought?

[SoCalXD]

I've had one on top of my AR10 CSASS config for two years. Every discussion on optics should begin with "In this price range...", otherwise, non-relivant advise will likely follow.

In this price range the same money spent on an equivalent magnification Burris or Redfield will get you slightly brighter glass, a lifetime warranty, and a lighter scope by about 5oz, at the significant costs of losing:

- First Focal Plane
- Etched Reticle
- Illuminated Reticle
- Side-adjustable parallax
- Exposed target turrents
- The FOV and strength of a 30mm tube
- The best combat reticle features ever designed

If you don't value many of the above listed features, and really want to cut weight, I vote for a Burris or Redfield 4.5-14x.

Otherwise, NOTHING can touch the value of a PA 4-14x ACSS! (In this price range).

[Whatisthis?]

I've had one on top of my AR10 CSASS config for two years. Every discussion on optics should begin with "In this price range...", otherwise, non-relivant advise will likely follow.

In this price range the same money spent on an equivalent magnification Burris or Redfield will get you slightly brighter glass, a lifetime warranty, and a lighter scope by about 5oz, at the significant costs of losing:

- First Focal Plane
- Etched Reticle
- Illuminated Reticle
- Side-adjustable parallax
- Exposed target turrents
- The FOV and strength of a 30mm tube
- The best combat reticle features ever designed

If you don't value many of the above listed features, and really want to cut weight, I vote for a Burris or Redfield 4.5-14x.

Otherwise, NOTHING can touch the value of a PA 4-14x ACSS! (In this price range).

I'd opt for a scope that is a bit stronger in construction and reliability. You cannot get this if you set your budget too low. I'd consider a more "budget" scope for a 308 bolt action to start at about the $800 range. I've used a lot of "budget" scopes, and that's about what is needed to get a solid construction and the features similar such as variable zoom and first focal plane. I'd look at the Vortex PST 4-16/6-24, SWFA 3-15/5-25, Bushnell 3.5-21, and other popular ones such as Burris, Sightron, etc. For a super-tight budget, one of the popular scopes is to go with a SWFA fixed 10 or 12x for $299. For next level up as an intermediate price range, I'd be looking at Nightforce, Kahles, Vortex Razor Gen II, etc. You can keep going up the ladder and you will get improvement, but it no longer becomes "budget".

Due to the price of the rifle and ammunition, as 308 is going to cost at least $0.50 for each time you pull the trigger, for me it makes sense to get something built that is stronger and will last. In the world of scopes, there really is no free lunch. Thus, I've found that the FFP/variable power scopes that can be relied on generally start at $800ish. Those are my personal standards for what I would recommend to a friend, but many feel differently.

SoCalXD, something much better than the PA, if reliability and durability are even remotely a factor, has already been mentioned and is bolded above. All those "features" of the PA do not mean anything if the scope breaks or has issues.

[Mr10]

Has anyone seen a post or article about the primary arms 4-14x44 ffp failing?

I hear reviews saying its a bad scope due to price and where it is manufacture, but haven't seen a report that it failed in anyway.

[JMP]

Has anyone seen a post or article about the primary arms 4-14x44 ffp failing?

I hear reviews saying its a bad scope due to price and where it is manufacture, but haven't seen a report that it failed in anyway.

It depends on what you mean by "failing". There was a post about 6 months ago in this forum where a member had a knob break off his PA optic, but it seems that the thead was removed.

Speaking from my experience, the issue I have had is that they have issues with a reliable return. I think they are mostly intented for ARs or light recoil guns like 22s. Thus, when I have seen them on bolt action rifles that are a bit more substantive in recoil, the return fails. With that said, I shoot with the expectation of a perfect 100% return every time and my standards may be unrealistically high. The turrets and erector system aren't up to par for MY standards using a very high precision centerfire bolt rifle that may have a fair amount of recoil. I have no tolerance for any deviation. That isn't to say that others won't find the level of deviation acceptable. The scopes I shoot are what most folks would find a bit on the pricey.

I also like very clear glass, but I do not even reach that level of critique if the mechanics do not meet my standards. PA is not the only label of scope that I have had issues with for repeatability. I do not want to sound like I am singling out just the PA, I've seen the same quality issues from others including major makers including Vortex. Things like Vortex 6-24 Crossfire, Barska, NC Star, and others fall into the same camp where they simply aren't built with the internals that are strong enough.

Thus, it simply boils down to your standards. If you simply need something that is going to hold within 5-10 MOA, I think it'll work, just with a higher probability of some complete failure just as all of the others in the price range. Then, of course, you'll get glass with a bit poorer resolution and darker than if you spend more.

My understanding is that PA is working on getting some of their reticles printed on higher quality scopes as they have done so with the ACSS on an ACOG and a new "deka" reticle is coming out on some higher quality labels. The "deka" will obviously be more geared toward centerfire bolt rifles.

[Mr10]

Thanks for the write up JMP.

I been slowly doing research for a optic for a M1a loaded. If you have any recommendation for a <$500 3-14 or similar scope, do share.

It depends on what you mean by "failing". There was a post about 6 months ago in this forum where a member had a knob break off his PA optic, but it seems that the thead was removed.

Speaking from my experience, the issue I have had is that they have issues with a reliable return. I think they are mostly intented for ARs or light recoil guns like 22s. Thus, when I have seen them on bolt action rifles that are a bit more substantive in recoil, the return fails. With that said, I shoot with the expectation of a perfect 100% return every time and my standards may be unrealistically high. The turrets and erector system aren't up to par for MY standards using a very high precision centerfire bolt rifle that may have a fair amount of recoil. I have no tolerance for any deviation. That isn't to say that others won't find the level of deviation acceptable. The scopes I shoot are what most folks would find a bit on the pricey.

I also like very clear glass, but I do not even reach that level of critique if the mechanics do not meet my standards. PA is not the only label of scope that I have had issues with for repeatability. I do not want to sound like I am singling out just the PA, I've seen the same quality issues from others including major makers including Vortex. Things like Vortex 6-24 Crossfire, Barska, NC Star, and others fall into the same camp where they simply aren't built with the internals that are strong enough.

Thus, it simply boils down to your standards. If you simply need something that is going to hold within 5-10 MOA, I think it'll work, just with a higher probability of some complete failure just as all of the others in the price range. Then, of course, you'll get glass with a bit poorer resolution and darker than if you spend more.

My understanding is that PA is working on getting some of their reticles printed on higher quality scopes as they have done so with the ACSS on an ACOG and a new "deka" reticle is coming out on some higher quality labels. The "deka" will obviously be more geared toward centerfire bolt rifles.

[JMP]

Thanks for the write up JMP.

I been slowly doing research for a optic for a M1a loaded. If you have any recommendation for a <$500 3-14 or similar scope, do share.

The least expensive scope with your parameters that I would be comfortable recommending is the SWFA 3-15x42 at $699.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-3-15x42-Tactical-Rifle-Scope-P62238.aspx

For a lower price, you will need to sacrifice the first focal plane and get into something like smaller hunting rifles. However, if you are patient and wait for a good deal or find a used one, you may be able to get into a more reasonable optic at $500.

[kel-tec-innovations]

I want a second one. Their good scope for their price

[Recon-01]

Been thinking about one but after reading this thread not so sure now.

[JMP]

Then last month, after about 6 months of usage, I discovered debris on one of the internal lenses, and it was showing up in the scope image.

I called Primary Arms, and they immediately sent me a prepaid UPS label to return the scope, and then shipped me a new scope soon after they received the old one.

The new one looks and works well.

And while Primary Arms customer service is excellent, the scope carries only a 3 year warranty. Not sure what problems will crop up after 3 years and how those will be handled.

Most good scopes come with a 3-year warranty (or thereabouts). The reason for this is that if problems are identified, they'll show up in the first year. What you are experience is the most common issue that can occur in all scopes. When a new scope is put together, after shipping it around and things settle, debris can come loose and get wedged between the lenses.

If you have this issue on a Schmidt & Bender or a Hensoldt and you can send it back. The first thing that they do is take the scope that has been removed from the rifle and they slam the bell of the scope against a phonebook or other sturdy object that won't scratch the materials. With these well-constructed scopes, you cannot hurt the scope by slamming it against the phone book in spite of how ridiculous it sounds. With the heavy torque from hitting it on the side of the bell sometimes pushes the debris to the side and it gets caught on the stickier outer housing. For higher quality scopes, it is pretty hard to break them short of scratching the lenses. You can thrash the good scopes and they'll still maintain a nice exact return to zero. This is because the erector systems that support the dialing and internals are so strong that you can count on them to never fail. But, the point is that this is the most common issue with all scopes. So, once you get that worked out, the scope shouldn't have any issues after 3 years. With cheaper scopes, they will probably open it up and remove the blotch or replace a lens as this is how they are generally fixed. For the good scopes, they don't really want to take it apart unless it is the last option as the lenses have been fit perfectly to exact specifications so it is costly to replace/refit the lenses. Most people do not understand how strong the higher end scope are.

What most people do not understand is that the more money you pay for the scope, generally, the lower percent profit margin the maker has on each unit. With cheap scopes, there is an astronomical profit margin cooked into each scope so there is not much harm in simply sending a replacement scope to replace the dudd. The stuff that is made in China has almost zero manufacturing costs so if you get one that doesn't work, you just send it back for a new one. If you get a scope built in Wetzlar, they will repair the existing scope as they'd lose money if they simply issued a replacement due to the lower percentage profit margin.

The more money you put into the scope (usually) generates the most value. In terms of $/unit profit margin, the high end scopes are larger as the very good scopes cost many thousands of dollars. But, when you express the profit market in terms of percentage, the $200 scopes have a profit margin that is very very high as they cost for parts and labor is nearly negligible.

In any event, if you are a serious marksman, you will end up with several scopes as there is simply no one-size-fits-all scope. For your specific application, you will want a scope that has the features and performance that matches up with what you want to do. For ELR shooting, you will not be able to beat the new Airbus Optronics scopes, but these would be terrible scopes to mount on to an AR or short action.

My personal favorite as an all-around scope is the Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 PMII as these function well in the greatest range of distances. They are a bit heavy so they may not work well on an AR where you are concerned about weight. I think they are a best value as they can be had new in the low $3ks. There are some fine scopes in the mid $2ks, but I find that they just aren't quite on the level of a Schmidt or TT.

Most folks do not like the Schmidts and TTs based on the sticker price, but they'll last forever, and they retain good resale value. Thus, think of it as a down payment as you won't be too far under water if you need to sell it.

That's an extreme example, but if you do have enough to get one of these nice scopes, I say go for it. You will end up a happy camper.

As I have said, think of it as a deposit. With good scopes, you have a high salvage value if you sell it used. With a PA, there is essentially no salvage value as these are more disposable scopes. if you pay $350 for a PA, you aren't spending that much less than a Schmidt & Bender PMII when you look at the salvage value. That's just my way of thinking.

Of course, sit back and wait for deals. I think for short action, tactical scopes, Schmidt, TT, Razor Gen II, Kahles, USO, Nightforce, March, etc., are all going to give you a nice value. From there it is simple preference.

Again, you will notice that the good scopes USUALLY do not come with a lifetime warranty like Vortex, which helps with the resale, and that is to help keep the high end scopes affordable as they aren't going to have issues past the break-in period. In fact, now that Vortex is well-established with the Gen II Razors, I'd not be at all surprised if they began to do away with their unconditional lifetime warranty as it helps reduce the price, and the lifetime warranty isn't something commonly needed as you will discover issues in the first year. On the solid scopes, if you have been humping it for 5 years, it means that it works and it isn't that easy to break them.

It's the construction on the erector system that makes it day and night better. To get a really nice construction without paying too much, Nightforce is a great way to go. To get a great construction and the best optical quality, I think you want to look at Schmidt or Hensoldt. These guys are hard to break and they come with exceptionally high QC tolerances from the factory.

[skyboi]

Who makes PA'S glass on these scopes??? What would you compare the image quality to??? Vortex pst? Burris xtr ii or leupold???

[SloChicken]

Who makes PA'S glass on these scopes??? What would you compare the image quality to??? Vortex pst? Burris xtr ii or leupold???

Not even close to the PST or any Leupold glass (that includes the humble vx-1s).

I thought the glass quality was the worst of the features I felt on that scope, next to the turrets having almost no feel of clicks whatsoever, just really muddy feeling. I have a Vortex Viper HS on one of my hunting rifles and it is about the same price as the PA scope and has much better glass, and is still not at the optical quality of some VX-IIs I have on other hunting rifles.

I like PA and they have been a good vendor, but their scopes are budget scopes, no getting around it.

You get lots of bells and whistles, but not much in the way of get up and go(I.e., quality of construction - you get alot of construction, just not much quality - and the guy that said it is the best reticle ever ... haha! You slay me - silly silly man ...)

[Merc1138]

Who makes PA'S glass on these scopes??? What would you compare the image quality to??? Vortex pst? Burris xtr ii or leupold???

No, no, and you didn't specify which leupold so I'll just assume vx-3... no.

[savagemann]

I have the pa 4-14 ffp mil reticle on my .223 spr build.
It has been great. Has a little over 1000rds through it.
But I'm not sure I would mount one on a .308.
For my .308 build I opted for the swfa 10x fixed. It is solid. Turrets have a nice feel and return to zero just fine.
Just for giggles, i wound the elevation all the way up from zero. It was 97 clicks. Brought it back down and zero was dead on.
Did the same with the windage. Returned no problem.


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[shooting4life]

I enjoyed how someone posts about looking for a budget scope and someone recommends a s&b 5-25.