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S&B PMII 5-25x56mm DT LT vs Nightforce ATACR F1 5-25x56mm vs Vortex Razor HD Gen II 4.5-27x56mm vs Kahles Gen2 k624i 6-24x56mm
I am an optics nerd. I have loved optics since I was a boy 30 some odd years ago. So much so that I had a decade long career in advertising photography… I think mostly because I liked camera lenses.
As an optics nerd, I decided to write this amateur comparison between these 4 long range scopes because I figured it might interest some folks that don’t have local access to these scopes.
While I may be a professional with camera lens systems, I am nothing of the sort with rifle optics so please take all this with a grain of salt.
This is MY subjective comparison with a small sample group of 1 of each scope (that means OPINION). Your mileage may vary. I thought Ilya’s comparison at opticthoughts.com is excellent, so I took some notes from his evaluation and adjusted to my tastes.
Knobs and Adjustments
Turrets
I should start this review with the disclaimer that I’ve never been a big fan of “really high speed turrets”. While I prefer 10 mil per turn over 5 mil per turn, I generally dislike anything over 10 mil per turn.
For me, the idea of the perfect turret on scopes of this size is something that is 10 mils per turn, larger and beefy and has firm and tactile clicks, and most importantly tracks well.
The Nightforce comes with 12 mil turrets. Interestingly, in terms of pure “feel”, it is in my opinion, the best calibrated with the Razor a very close second. The Kahles feels better calibrated than the S&B but keep in mind, my S&B has Locking MTC turrets. It is “mushier” in comparison to the other scopes, but we’re nitpicking here and the DT style knobs that a lot of folks prefer on the S&B feel different.
The S&B and Razor come with locking turrets. While I think the design of the S&B locking turrets is nifty, it is a beast to lock and unlock whereas the Razor isn’t. My hat tips to the Razor.
I have not extensively tested the windage turrets because frankly, I hold for wind. In this case I appreciate either locking turrets or the S&B and Razor, or the turret cap on the Nightforce.
Parallax
Moving onto the parallax adjustment knob, I am not a fan of difficult to operate parallax knobs and also like wider spaced parallax movement. I’ve owned scopes where the parallax knob seemed to have been designed for the Hulk.
In terms of pure “feel”, the S&B and Razor have what I think is just the perfect amount of tension. The Nightforce is a touch lighter, and there are days where I’d prefer the Nightforce tension over the S&B and Razor but again, this is subjective. The Kahles is a totally different animal with the parallax under the turret, and has a perfect amount of tension as well. Bottom line, there shouldn’t be any complaints with any of these.
In terms of calibration to the distance numbers listed on the parallax knob, I live in So Cal where the weather is very agreeable most of the time. I recognize that parallax numbers on knobs are designed for specific atmospheric conditions and change accordingly so I am a big fan of how Nightforce “used” to do it with hash marks. I know a lot of folks like numbers on their turrets.
What I want is a parallax knob that will remove parallax as it puts the picture into focus. For me, the numbers mean nothing, but I do find it interesting and with the S&B, the numbers always closely match up to the distance I’m shooting at. If I was shooting by the numbers on the knob, I’d have more confidence in the S&B with the Razor a close second. The Nightforce numbers don’t line up… but again, that doesn’t bother me… when the Nightforce is in focus, parallax is gone as well so I’m a happy camper.
The one interesting thing I’ve found is with my Kahles. Either I’m doing something wrong, or it has somehow circumvented the laws of physics, but past 300 yards with the knob set anywhere past 200 yards or so, I can’t induce parallax error. It’s really strange and would love to figure out what the deal is.
One thing to note is that the S&B lets you focus down to 10 meters.. while that means nothing to me since i don’t shoot at anything that close, to some, this could be important. The Nightforce and Razor also allow you focus in closer than the Kahles.
Zoom
With zoom rings, I prefer less tension and easy to grab. The S&B has what I feel is the perfect amount of tension. I actually like the rubbery feel of it. I know some folks do not like that the Nightforce ocular housing turns when adjusting zoom ratio, but I LOVE it. The Kahles zoom ring has a little more tension than the S&B but has a nice bump on the adjustment ring that allows you to grab it easier. One of my few quibbles with the Razor is the zoom ring. It’s stiffer and difficult to grab in comparison. However they have a really nice switchview that fixes all of that.
Tracking
All 4 scopes have been put through box tracking tests as well as shot out to distance, but never beyond 11 mils. I can attest that they all track perfectly to 11 mils… well better than I can tell or shoot anyhow, but anything beyond 11 mils, I can’t vouch for.
Optical Clarity
I would like to start off this section with a disclaimer. I feel that at this price point, in most cases, we’re nitpicking the quality difference. They’re all phenomenal optically. For me, more important than the minutia of optical clarity differences between scopes, is whether the scope tracks correctly, and has the reticle I want. But like many others, I geek out when it comes to being able to see the chin whiskers on something far far away so while the optical differences are not really important to me in the area of shooting, I still want a friggin amazing picture… I paid for it so i want it! :P
To begin with, I believe most of us know, the S&B does tunnel under 7x… a LOT. The Nighforce also tunnels under 7x, but not much at all. Not enough for me to really notice or care anyhow. The other two don’t tunnel, which is rather amazing to me with regards to the Razor, given that it has the widest zoom range.
I’ve shot these scopes in various conditions with exception of the Nightforce since I just got it a couple of weeks ago and have only had it out a couple of times… but when I did a direct side by side comparison, it was done on a clear to very slightly overcast day, at 70 degrees with 50% relative humidity.
With exception of the Kahles, I think anyone would be hard pressed to find any difference in optical clarity, unless doing a serious side by side comparison.
In terms of pure resolution, I’m sorry to say, I still think the S&B barely edges out the rest. I have to say though that this copy of my S&B is better than any scope I’ve ever looked through. It is better than my Optronika German made Premier, better than my US made Premier. The only scope I haven’t spent anytime behind is a Hensoldt, which is probably a good thing for me. So it may be the king of S&B scopes, but I find it interesting that we often hear that of S&B.
The Nightforce and Razor are 95% of the S&B to my eyes.
However, the only way I could tell the difference in resolution was to STUDY the image as I went back and forth from scope to scope. The difference is so small between the scopes that I really don’t think it matters all that much. The Kahles gives up a little in terms of resolution to the others, but again, not very much.
All 4 scopes have the contrast “pop” people so love.
In terms of chromatic aberrations, I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised to find that the Nightforce barely edged out the S&B… which barely edges out the Razor. The Kahles does a poorer job of handling CA than the other 3, but again, I’m wondering if I’m doing something wrong given the parallax situation. I have read from others though that this may actually just be how the scope is, hence the “Gen 3” version. It’s more noticeable when looking at high contrast targets but from a shooting standpoint, it doesn’t bother me.
In terms of eye box flexibility, I don’t find any of them particularly difficult to get behind when properly mounted on a rifle.
(Some might notice I didn’t mention illumination. I rarely use it, so it doesn’t really matter to me all that much. Having said that, I like the Kahles knob and illumination best, with the Razor a close second. I dislike the S&B’s illumination knob location. I generally am not a fan of the push button illumination of the Nightforce, but it’s nifty that it changes colors.)
Final Thoughts
Schmidt & Benders PMII 5-25x56mm: I am amazed at what the S&B team created so many years ago. For such an old design, the fact that it has held its position at the apex says a lot about the engineering that went behind it. I think that the Nightforce and Vortex Razor give up nothing to the S&B and have caught up. I think the Kahles is close in every aspect except for overall image clarity but it seems that may have been rectified with the new Gen3 series of scopes?
Given that the S&B still costs so much more, I don’t see myself spending that kind of money again when there are so many scopes that can go toe to toe with it for a much more agreeable entry price. I can see why the S&B has been the gold standard for so long, and why it will probably still be in the minds of most for a long time to come.
I can’t imagine anyone regretting an S&B PMII. Yes the price is painful at first, but you forget about it after a few range trips.
Nightforce ATACR F1 5-25x56mm: I’m not sure if it’s because the Nightforce is my newest scope, or whether because of my history of shooting with Nightforce has given me this feeling of security and confidence, but it is overall my current favorite scope with exception of the Mil-R reticle. I LOVE the feel of the turrets and the image clarity is just primo. I was a big fan of the MLR2.0 and I don’t like the Mil-R as much. Outside of the reticle, this scope is as close to perfect for me as it gets. And who knows, the Mil-R could grow on me.
Vortex Razor HD GenII 4.5-27x56mm: Vortex hit a home run with this scope. It is done RIGHT. From the 10 mil locking turrets, to glass clarity, to the company support, this scope is nothing short of amazing at the price point. The only downside I find with this scope is the weight. You pick any of these 4 scopes up side by side, and there’s no doubt the Razor is heavier. Mounted on a precision rifle though, I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference and given what you get at the price point, this scope with all its features and amazing glass, is impossible to beat. On a lightweight gas gun, or hunting rig, I’d not mount this scope personally though. Love the reticle.
Kahles k624i GenII 6-24x56mm: My current favorite reticle would have to be the MSR-k on the Kahles. To me, it is the perfect reticle for a scope of this magnification. While it gives up a little in the glass department to the others, everything else about it is awesome. It also seemingly has a much wider field of view compared to the other scopes at the respective magnifications. I believe it is the lightest of the bunch, at least it feels that way.
The perfect scope for me, would have the controls and form of the Nightforce, with the Kahles MSR-k reticle, locking turrets of the Razor, and the parallax of the S&B. :P As such, until that scope exists, I’ll happily continue using these. ;D
*EDIT*
Since I did this comparison, I started reading other folks reviews on their Kahles and started to think that perhaps something was not quite right with mine. I sent it in to Jeff Huber at Kahles (awesome guy), and he sort of agreed with me and sent it off to Austria.
I just got it back and a quick look through it, unmounted, looks like a lot of the CA is gone now. I will have to mount it up and get behind it properly to know, but it looks promising. Will update when I get a chance to do so.
I am an optics nerd. I have loved optics since I was a boy 30 some odd years ago. So much so that I had a decade long career in advertising photography… I think mostly because I liked camera lenses.
As an optics nerd, I decided to write this amateur comparison between these 4 long range scopes because I figured it might interest some folks that don’t have local access to these scopes.
While I may be a professional with camera lens systems, I am nothing of the sort with rifle optics so please take all this with a grain of salt.
This is MY subjective comparison with a small sample group of 1 of each scope (that means OPINION). Your mileage may vary. I thought Ilya’s comparison at opticthoughts.com is excellent, so I took some notes from his evaluation and adjusted to my tastes. Knobs and Adjustments
Turrets
I should start this review with the disclaimer that I’ve never been a big fan of “really high speed turrets”. While I prefer 10 mil per turn over 5 mil per turn, I generally dislike anything over 10 mil per turn.
For me, the idea of the perfect turret on scopes of this size is something that is 10 mils per turn, larger and beefy and has firm and tactile clicks, and most importantly tracks well.
The Nightforce comes with 12 mil turrets. Interestingly, in terms of pure “feel”, it is in my opinion, the best calibrated with the Razor a very close second. The Kahles feels better calibrated than the S&B but keep in mind, my S&B has Locking MTC turrets. It is “mushier” in comparison to the other scopes, but we’re nitpicking here and the DT style knobs that a lot of folks prefer on the S&B feel different.
The S&B and Razor come with locking turrets. While I think the design of the S&B locking turrets is nifty, it is a beast to lock and unlock whereas the Razor isn’t. My hat tips to the Razor.
I have not extensively tested the windage turrets because frankly, I hold for wind. In this case I appreciate either locking turrets or the S&B and Razor, or the turret cap on the Nightforce.
Parallax
Moving onto the parallax adjustment knob, I am not a fan of difficult to operate parallax knobs and also like wider spaced parallax movement. I’ve owned scopes where the parallax knob seemed to have been designed for the Hulk.
In terms of pure “feel”, the S&B and Razor have what I think is just the perfect amount of tension. The Nightforce is a touch lighter, and there are days where I’d prefer the Nightforce tension over the S&B and Razor but again, this is subjective. The Kahles is a totally different animal with the parallax under the turret, and has a perfect amount of tension as well. Bottom line, there shouldn’t be any complaints with any of these.
In terms of calibration to the distance numbers listed on the parallax knob, I live in So Cal where the weather is very agreeable most of the time. I recognize that parallax numbers on knobs are designed for specific atmospheric conditions and change accordingly so I am a big fan of how Nightforce “used” to do it with hash marks. I know a lot of folks like numbers on their turrets.
What I want is a parallax knob that will remove parallax as it puts the picture into focus. For me, the numbers mean nothing, but I do find it interesting and with the S&B, the numbers always closely match up to the distance I’m shooting at. If I was shooting by the numbers on the knob, I’d have more confidence in the S&B with the Razor a close second. The Nightforce numbers don’t line up… but again, that doesn’t bother me… when the Nightforce is in focus, parallax is gone as well so I’m a happy camper.
The one interesting thing I’ve found is with my Kahles. Either I’m doing something wrong, or it has somehow circumvented the laws of physics, but past 300 yards with the knob set anywhere past 200 yards or so, I can’t induce parallax error. It’s really strange and would love to figure out what the deal is.
One thing to note is that the S&B lets you focus down to 10 meters.. while that means nothing to me since i don’t shoot at anything that close, to some, this could be important. The Nightforce and Razor also allow you focus in closer than the Kahles.
Zoom
With zoom rings, I prefer less tension and easy to grab. The S&B has what I feel is the perfect amount of tension. I actually like the rubbery feel of it. I know some folks do not like that the Nightforce ocular housing turns when adjusting zoom ratio, but I LOVE it. The Kahles zoom ring has a little more tension than the S&B but has a nice bump on the adjustment ring that allows you to grab it easier. One of my few quibbles with the Razor is the zoom ring. It’s stiffer and difficult to grab in comparison. However they have a really nice switchview that fixes all of that.
Tracking
All 4 scopes have been put through box tracking tests as well as shot out to distance, but never beyond 11 mils. I can attest that they all track perfectly to 11 mils… well better than I can tell or shoot anyhow, but anything beyond 11 mils, I can’t vouch for.
Optical Clarity
I would like to start off this section with a disclaimer. I feel that at this price point, in most cases, we’re nitpicking the quality difference. They’re all phenomenal optically. For me, more important than the minutia of optical clarity differences between scopes, is whether the scope tracks correctly, and has the reticle I want. But like many others, I geek out when it comes to being able to see the chin whiskers on something far far away so while the optical differences are not really important to me in the area of shooting, I still want a friggin amazing picture… I paid for it so i want it! :P
To begin with, I believe most of us know, the S&B does tunnel under 7x… a LOT. The Nighforce also tunnels under 7x, but not much at all. Not enough for me to really notice or care anyhow. The other two don’t tunnel, which is rather amazing to me with regards to the Razor, given that it has the widest zoom range.
I’ve shot these scopes in various conditions with exception of the Nightforce since I just got it a couple of weeks ago and have only had it out a couple of times… but when I did a direct side by side comparison, it was done on a clear to very slightly overcast day, at 70 degrees with 50% relative humidity.
With exception of the Kahles, I think anyone would be hard pressed to find any difference in optical clarity, unless doing a serious side by side comparison.
In terms of pure resolution, I’m sorry to say, I still think the S&B barely edges out the rest. I have to say though that this copy of my S&B is better than any scope I’ve ever looked through. It is better than my Optronika German made Premier, better than my US made Premier. The only scope I haven’t spent anytime behind is a Hensoldt, which is probably a good thing for me.
So it may be the king of S&B scopes, but I find it interesting that we often hear that of S&B.The Nightforce and Razor are 95% of the S&B to my eyes.
However, the only way I could tell the difference in resolution was to STUDY the image as I went back and forth from scope to scope. The difference is so small between the scopes that I really don’t think it matters all that much. The Kahles gives up a little in terms of resolution to the others, but again, not very much.
All 4 scopes have the contrast “pop” people so love.
In terms of chromatic aberrations, I have to say that I am pleasantly surprised to find that the Nightforce barely edged out the S&B… which barely edges out the Razor. The Kahles does a poorer job of handling CA than the other 3, but again, I’m wondering if I’m doing something wrong given the parallax situation. I have read from others though that this may actually just be how the scope is, hence the “Gen 3” version. It’s more noticeable when looking at high contrast targets but from a shooting standpoint, it doesn’t bother me.
In terms of eye box flexibility, I don’t find any of them particularly difficult to get behind when properly mounted on a rifle.
(Some might notice I didn’t mention illumination. I rarely use it, so it doesn’t really matter to me all that much. Having said that, I like the Kahles knob and illumination best, with the Razor a close second. I dislike the S&B’s illumination knob location. I generally am not a fan of the push button illumination of the Nightforce, but it’s nifty that it changes colors.)
Final Thoughts
Schmidt & Benders PMII 5-25x56mm: I am amazed at what the S&B team created so many years ago. For such an old design, the fact that it has held its position at the apex says a lot about the engineering that went behind it. I think that the Nightforce and Vortex Razor give up nothing to the S&B and have caught up. I think the Kahles is close in every aspect except for overall image clarity but it seems that may have been rectified with the new Gen3 series of scopes?
Given that the S&B still costs so much more, I don’t see myself spending that kind of money again when there are so many scopes that can go toe to toe with it for a much more agreeable entry price. I can see why the S&B has been the gold standard for so long, and why it will probably still be in the minds of most for a long time to come.
I can’t imagine anyone regretting an S&B PMII. Yes the price is painful at first, but you forget about it after a few range trips.
Nightforce ATACR F1 5-25x56mm: I’m not sure if it’s because the Nightforce is my newest scope, or whether because of my history of shooting with Nightforce has given me this feeling of security and confidence, but it is overall my current favorite scope with exception of the Mil-R reticle. I LOVE the feel of the turrets and the image clarity is just primo. I was a big fan of the MLR2.0 and I don’t like the Mil-R as much. Outside of the reticle, this scope is as close to perfect for me as it gets. And who knows, the Mil-R could grow on me.
Vortex Razor HD GenII 4.5-27x56mm: Vortex hit a home run with this scope. It is done RIGHT. From the 10 mil locking turrets, to glass clarity, to the company support, this scope is nothing short of amazing at the price point. The only downside I find with this scope is the weight. You pick any of these 4 scopes up side by side, and there’s no doubt the Razor is heavier. Mounted on a precision rifle though, I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference and given what you get at the price point, this scope with all its features and amazing glass, is impossible to beat. On a lightweight gas gun, or hunting rig, I’d not mount this scope personally though. Love the reticle.
Kahles k624i GenII 6-24x56mm: My current favorite reticle would have to be the MSR-k on the Kahles. To me, it is the perfect reticle for a scope of this magnification. While it gives up a little in the glass department to the others, everything else about it is awesome. It also seemingly has a much wider field of view compared to the other scopes at the respective magnifications. I believe it is the lightest of the bunch, at least it feels that way.
The perfect scope for me, would have the controls and form of the Nightforce, with the Kahles MSR-k reticle, locking turrets of the Razor, and the parallax of the S&B. :P As such, until that scope exists, I’ll happily continue using these. ;D
*EDIT*
Since I did this comparison, I started reading other folks reviews on their Kahles and started to think that perhaps something was not quite right with mine. I sent it in to Jeff Huber at Kahles (awesome guy), and he sort of agreed with me and sent it off to Austria.
I just got it back and a quick look through it, unmounted, looks like a lot of the CA is gone now. I will have to mount it up and get behind it properly to know, but it looks promising. Will update when I get a chance to do so.
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