Super-short low variable power scope for M4gery?

[dchang0]

Hi, guys--

I've been looking at optics threads and forums till my eyes are blurry, but nobody seems to have quite the setup I'm looking for... Hopefully some of you gurus can help me.

I've got an M4gery that will be used mainly for 25m target practice. In a SHTF situation, it will be my main weapon, so the scope needs to be quick to engage out to 200m. The scope should be super short (like a red dot scope, around 4 to 7 inches in length) but needs to be variable power (like a regular rifle scope) starting in the 1.5 to 3 range and going up to around 5 to 6 range because my eyes aren't strong enough past 100m. Fixed power is out of the picture.

Key for me is a slightly longer eye relief so that I can mount it a couple of inches forward. I'm not looking for intermediate eye relief (like scout scopes or pistol scopes) that result in scopes mounted forward of the receiver--just a few inches forward is all. If I had to guess, I'd say the eye relief should be around 6 inches instead of the usual 3. Most pistol scopes have eye relief that's way too long, though they're the perfect size for the purpose.

Basically, I'd like a short variable rifle scope that mounts on the forward edge of the receiver, without protruding too far over the hand guard. Most regular variable power rifle scopes are way too long--protruding far over both the front and back of the receiver.

IOW, I'm looking for a "jack of all trades, master of none" scope, straddling the line right between the CQB/tactical/combat scopes and the hunting/sniping/target scopes. The closest scope I've seen is the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T scope with variable power between 1X and 3X, but the highest magnification is too low, the FOV is too small, and the price is way too high ($850). Plus, their concept is basically to combine a red dot 1X sight and its companion 3X FTS or QD magnifier into one unit, which is different from what I'm going for: a super-short variable-power scope. The best answer to this design concept would be an Aimpoint CompM4 with variable power 1-5X. For now, I'm trying to keep the cost down by forgoing red-dot technology and going with regular optics.

Any recommendation or pointers are very welcome! Thanks very much in advance!

[brando]

It's hard to get something like that in a compact form, so you're going to have to compromise either way. An EOTech or Aimpoint with magnifier could be an option. Personally I like the Trijicon Accupoint as a poor-man's Short Dot:

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=140

[dchang0]

Yeah, I like the Accupoint, but it seems a bit long... I have an EOTech with the 3X flip-to-side, but 3X ain't enough for 100m+, and man is it hard to fit all that gear in a small space!

For that reason, the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T is a decent choice--it costs the same as the EOTech 5xx + 3X FTS magnifier set.

Any other suggestions? I guess I have my short list of stuff to save for, then--either the Accupoint or the Leupold...

Oh, and thanks, Brando, for the link, by the way. I didn't know they sold the Accupoint with a Larue as a kit!

[dchang0]

Well, the Leupold is out. Eye relief is a super-short 2 inches. The Accupoint is looking fantastic--it's got 4.8 inches, and with the 1.25-4X model, it'll be cheaper than a Eotech + 4X magnifier and still be a variable power.

The length is 10.2 inches, which is the only drawback so far...

Thanks again for the great tip!

[3GunFunShooter]

Millet DMS. 1-4 Circle Dot. Cheap, can be found for about 200. 50 pages on AR15 forums. Eye relief is the problem.
Good scope for the money. Also the Simmons Diamond PRO shotgun scope.
1.5-5, good eye relief. Cheap, can be found for $50. Lot of 3 gunners used this scope.

[maxicon]

The DMS-1 is a great scope for the money, but it's not very short.

I don't think I've ever seen a scope with 6" eye relief.

[dchang0]

Wow, these are good suggestions, especially because of the low price.

Pros: >3" eye relief, super-low prices, Millet's 1MOA dot inside the donut

Con: length--Simmons is 10", Millet DMS-1 is 11.5"

I'm getting the feeling that a short scope with 6" eye relief requires fairly large lenses (and possibly a wider tube) at the midrange powers like 3X and 4X, but I'm not quite sure. It could be made, I'm sure, but which company would want to?

Thanks for the tips--more are welcome!

[dchang0]

Looks like there might be a new Accupoint with 5" eye relief coming out the first of 2009--just in time for my second build. The Accupoint is definitely growing on me, for its higher-than-average eye relief.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=242801&posted=1#post242801

Thanks, brando, for the link to Larue--the SPR-E mount is awesome!

[dchang0]

Hey, I happened to run across this scope that seems to be a good fit--9.5 inches long, with 2X-7X power and 3.5-5 inches of eye relief:

(second one down the page)

http://www.burrisoptics.com/timberline1.html

I'll search for reviews--the Accupoint's still got a better reticle in the German #4 or the Mil-Dot (if the Mil-Dot is produced in the TR21 line).

[Flat Broke]

Field of View on that Burris is a little cramped. I can't find the length on this Simmons but the eye relief is good, and the field of view is better. I actually have the 32mm objective lens illuminated reticle version with a CAA mount. It works alright as I can shoot good enough to hit man sized targets with both eyes open out to 50 yards, but anything longer than that, I close my left eye and aim. All that being said, I'm thinking of selling that off, and saving for an ACOG. Like you, I thought I "needed" variable power. But, every time I take mine out to the range, I leave it at 5x because I can't get on target much faster at low power. As a result, I've been thinking of just going with a fixed power optic, and the ACOG would be my first choice if funds were no issue.

All in all the Simmons shotgun deal is an inexpensive way to try out a variable power optic in that range and see if the concept works for you. The only downside is that it doesn't have a nice red triangle like an Accupoint TR21R which would likely help with using the BAC at low power. Randall/AR15 Barrels had posted up some info regarding his experiences with the Accupoint. You may want to check that out as I believe he noted some shift in POI going from 1.25 to 4x. But I can't remeber the exact details.

If you're worried about length because of not wanting to mount anything forward of the receiver, there are plenty of mount options available. Check out Maxicon's very detailed account of pretty much every option out there.

Chris

[Teletiger7]

Buy this and a Larue mount to go with it:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=130491

Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with the seller of this item.

[dchang0]

Wow, thanks Flat Broke--you are a wealth of information!

Yeah, I like the Simmons and checked it out when it was suggested. That is looking like a great choice, though I still can't find the length of the sucker...

Thanks for the tip against the Burris--it's out then.

I do like the 4x ACOG, but that's just too far out of my price range... someday!

[CSTactical]

I sell the Accupoint and I really like them. You said the CQ/T eye relief is to short but for me it is not that bad it has more than the Trijicon TA31 models at 1.5”.

Mike @ CSGW

[dchang0]

That's right! I forgot that the eye relief is super-short on those... It's been such a long time since I got to try one.

The Accupoint is looking better and better, followed by the Simmons with illuminated reticle for 1/4 the price.

I think in the end, it'll be an Accupoint TR21 with the green triangle slated for release next year. That'll give me time to recuperate from the recent purchases and to see if they'll put out a Mil-dot model too.

But, considering that I have two AR builds going on, I might buy the Simmons too, just for the heck of it.

Thanks for all the help, guys! You've all be super-helpful!

[Jicko]

Perfect scope for you.... Elcan SpecterDR ..... about $1900....

If you want to know how it looks..... try "google" images...

Hi, guys--

I've been looking at optics threads and forums till my eyes are blurry, but nobody seems to have quite the setup I'm looking for... Hopefully some of you gurus can help me.

I've got an M4gery that will be used mainly for 25m target practice. In a SHTF situation, it will be my main weapon, so the scope needs to be quick to engage out to 200m. The scope should be super short (like a red dot scope, around 4 to 7 inches in length) but needs to be variable power (like a regular rifle scope) starting in the 1.5 to 3 range and going up to around 5 to 6 range because my eyes aren't strong enough past 100m. Fixed power is out of the picture.

Key for me is a slightly longer eye relief so that I can mount it a couple of inches forward. I'm not looking for intermediate eye relief (like scout scopes or pistol scopes) that result in scopes mounted forward of the receiver--just a few inches forward is all. If I had to guess, I'd say the eye relief should be around 6 inches instead of the usual 3. Most pistol scopes have eye relief that's way too long, though they're the perfect size for the purpose.

Basically, I'd like a short variable rifle scope that mounts on the forward edge of the receiver, without protruding too far over the hand guard. Most regular variable power rifle scopes are way too long--protruding far over both the front and back of the receiver.

IOW, I'm looking for a "jack of all trades, master of none" scope, straddling the line right between the CQB/tactical/combat scopes and the hunting/sniping/target scopes. The closest scope I've seen is the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T scope with variable power between 1X and 3X, but the highest magnification is too low, the FOV is too small, and the price is way too high ($850). Plus, their concept is basically to combine a red dot 1X sight and its companion 3X FTS or QD magnifier into one unit, which is different from what I'm going for: a super-short variable-power scope. The best answer to this design concept would be an Aimpoint CompM4 with variable power 1-5X. For now, I'm trying to keep the cost down by forgoing red-dot technology and going with regular optics.

Any recommendation or pointers are very welcome! Thanks very much in advance!