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Long story short, I'm replacing the red dot (Vortex Strikefire) with a scope as the main sight and considering adding a small red dot sight as a second option. So next is deciding how to mount the red dot. The two popular options are to mount 45 degree or mount above the scope. Wanted to hear from others who have the combo setup.
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Last edited by GunHo; 03-16-2015, 7:06 AM. -
I have an ACOG with a RMR mounted on top of it. I much prefer that configuration over the 45 degree mount since I like having a heads up position for close shooting. The only downside is having such a large height over bore distance so you have to practice your holdovers at short distances.Originally posted by G. Michael Hopf -
-DimitriComment
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Sorry to hear that a 45 degree mount is out of the question. I use one with a FastFire II and a Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x32, and it requires no repositioning of my head, just a slight roll to bring it into view.
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Side mounting is tricky as we are generally not accustomed to a lateral bore height. If you are using a telescopic scope for longer range, try shooting it on it's side with your elevation knob as windage and your windage knob for elevation, it ain't easy.
That said, if you are already using something like an ACOG or a device with magnfication, the red dot is good for one thing--that's CQB. In that case, it becomes very advantageous to get the least bore height you can get. Shooting a rifle with a high degree of accuracy at 0-100 yards is not easy if your optic's axis is 4" above the bore.
Either a side mount or top mount has issues, you just need to choose. I sort of like the idea of a side mount since most my scopes are not equipped to have a dot mounted on top, but it's pretty easy to pop a sight on a side rail.Comment
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Thought about a 1-4x and 1-6x optic?Comment
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The ACOG has a 100 yard zero since the BDC reticle is calibrated for that distance.
The RMR has a 50 yard zero since that's the distance I usually zero my irons and Aimpoints. Even with a 50 yard zero, the POI with the RMR is still within 4" out to 200 yards from my testing. At close distances (within 25 yards), I just remember to aim a few inches high.Last edited by teflondog; 03-19-2015, 10:27 AM.Originally posted by G. Michael HopfComment
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OP: I run a 45 mount on one of my rifles. It works just fine.
I recommend the gear sector railed 45 deg. flashlight mount with a .5" YHM non-QD riser. Then you can use a standard aimpoint-height mount for proper sight height for aimpoint/PA MD-ADS/etc...
It's not the cheapest setup, but it's a rock-solid mount combination, and you can run it off either your top rail or a side rail, as it will end up in the same 1:30 position relative to your bore. Depending on your main scope and your rail, you have some options for how far forward on the weapon you can mount your red dot. Below is an example. It's running a much better red dot now. The one in the picture was more for testing purposes for sight height.
ETA: The key thing with the 45 deg. mount is that your cheek weld doesn't change, only your right elbow to fingertips and your left wrist adjust position. This assumes a right-handed shooter and a 1:30 mount for the red dot. Lefties would reverse this, of course. The equipment I listed above would work just as well for a lefty, though you might have fun turning on or off your red dot with the scope in the way...so a 50k hour battery life and/or top-mounted controls would be a plus there. It's much faster and more natural than lifting your head up for a chin weld and dropping back down to use the scope. It DOES add a bit more weight, since the mounts are heavier, but if you can get a Miculek-style 45 mount with a burris FF3 or similar, it can keep the weight down. I went with the PA MD-ADS for battery life over weight, since that rifle was already a beast. If you want a lightweight build and are right-handed, you can get away with a lighter mount and sight. Also, with a top-mounted 45 rail, rear BUIS, AND a scope, your rail real-estate gets pretty crowded. That's why I went for the side-rail for the 45 mount.
Have you even USED a 45 deg mount? Heck, have you even held a rifle in your hand that had one on it?Side mounting is tricky as we are generally not accustomed to a lateral bore height. If you are using a telescopic scope for longer range, try shooting it on it's side with your elevation knob as windage and your windage knob for elevation, it ain't easy.
That said, if you are already using something like an ACOG or a device with magnfication, the red dot is good for one thing--that's CQB. In that case, it becomes very advantageous to get the least bore height you can get. Shooting a rifle with a high degree of accuracy at 0-100 yards is not easy if your optic's axis is 4" above the bore.
Either a side mount or top mount has issues, you just need to choose. I sort of like the idea of a side mount since most my scopes are not equipped to have a dot mounted on top, but it's pretty easy to pop a sight on a side rail.
You slightly twist the rifle in your hands to rotate the red dot into the same place the scope was. In all other respects, you use it the same way. Hell, you could even mount a red dot with a BDC on the 45 mount, and assuming your mount was the correct height, it would function identically. There is no "lateral bore height" and your scope/rds doesn't end up being sideways to your eyeball or anything weird like that. If it is sideways, you aren't doing it right.
Anyone who can use a red dot normally can learn to use a 45 degree mount in a matter of one minute with proper instruction. Muscle memory takes a wee bit longer for transition speed, but it's not rocket science or at all awkward unless you have some kind of bizarre shoulder deformity/injury. If it was that ridiculous of an idea, Jerry Miculek wouldn't be using it, that's for sure.
Oh, and BTW, that sight whose battery "wouldn't last a month" is doing great at 5+ months down the road on the original battery.
You may not like the glare on it (I think your exact word was "ewwwww"), but it works just fine, and the battery is good.
Last edited by sunborder; 03-21-2015, 10:19 PM.Comment
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I've run a number of RDS/Scope combos over the years and while the 45 degree option is the most versatile, it never really felt comfortable to me. It's versatile in the way that it pretty much doesn't matter what kind of scope you mount - it'll rarely be obscured. However, if you mount it at the 12 O'clock position, you have fewer options, but for me this was more desirable.
Since I'm old and my experience shooting ARs with optics in the Army started with CAR-15s and not M4s, all of our optics were mounted on the non-removable carry handles which lead to a very specific cheek/stockweld. Obviously that all changed in 1994 when we started rail mounting everything, but I still have the muscle memory of the high-mounted RDS.
Moving to an SPR later on, there were no RDS or BUIS options at the time, so we all pretty much were focused on rail mounted optic height. Flash forward a number of years and I'm a civie with an SPR clone and I decide to take advantage of modern RDS/scope combos. I try out an HDMR with an RMR in 45degree position.
I normally shoot extended ranges, but with an SPR I like to run some of the old drills that involve close-in targets, then staggered distances. I think for some people they can make the transition to the 45 degree sight very smooth and naturally, but me not so much. It always felt awkward, a bit like some of the more difficult barricade positions. Rotating the RMR into the 12 O'Clock position fixed this as I still had that muscle memory for carry handle height optics and found my transitions were much faster and more natural.
But this presented a problem: with such large turrets, do you mount in front or behind the turrets? One will be at least partially obscured. With a .223 rifle and a pretty simple optic, I wasn't planning on dialing a whole lot of elevation and windage, so obscuring the turret was the lesser of two evils. However, say this was a .308WIN and I intended to do precision shooting as I normally do, dialing all the way? Then I'd be in a pickle.
That's why I'm glad to see more intermediate optics coming to market with flatter elevation knobs like the Leupold 3-18x with the M5C2 turrets or the S&B Ultra Short with their flat turrets. Both of these would easily allow you to mount a mini-RDS in front of the turret without obscuring the sight.
Just stuff to think about...--BrandoComment
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Mounting red dot over the scope - you need to crane your neck.
Mounting 45 deg offset - you need to rotate your rifle a lot.
Finally I settled on the third option - mounting RDS 30 degrees offset and very close to the 1-6X scope. I used the Warne RAMP mount. Reflex type tubeless red dots work so much better than tube style RDS in this application.Comment
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Primary Arms makes a short rail section that mounts to the scope tube. Mount a RDS to it, and you could try it in many position until you find what works best for you.
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