91/30 woes

[dwa]

so my 91/30 has a problem or a few. first up the trigger pull is ridicuously long, so long youd almost think it wouldnt fire. its annoying but doesnt make the rifle inoperable. the second issue does, the bolt gets jammed and takes all of my he-man strength to work it. i also noticed it scratches the hell out of the case when this is done. when cycled with an unfired round its stiff but still doable. im not really to keen on taking it to a gunsmith as i figure that it would be cheaper to just get another, and i also have an m38 so i dont see the need. any ideas would be greatly apreciated.

[Gunaria]

Have you tried hitting it?
























Maybe it just needs a good cleaning. Try some different ammo.

[bigthaiboy]

There isn't much that can be done to the Mosin trigger. They have one of the worst triggers on any military rifle. If you are shooting surplus ammo, steel case ammo will cause the bolt to stick. Some types of ammo seem to be worst than others. Brass cased ammo will extract much, much more smoothly.

[SJgunguy24]

Go to this web site www.surplusrifle.com You will find damn near every fix for milsurp firearms. There is sections for each type of firearm. Click the mosin link and there are "sticky bolt" and trigger fixes.

[CDFingers]

There is also the problem of ammo that has been sealed with lacquer. If you look sideways across a cartridge, you can see the lacquer on there. When you fire it, the lacquer melts, then sticks the bolt to the breech. Rubber mallet or 2x4 will work. But it's best to get non-lacquered ammo. Chinese is really good.

CDFingers

[Dolk]

There is a lot you can do about the trigger to reduce pull and shorten it up. No two Russian rifles are the same.

There are a lot of articles written on the web that will show you how to lighten up and shorten a Mosin pull. from polishing and stoning, to bending springs or shimming them up.

You can even replace it with an M39 trigger (about $15 or so). That will give you the two stage pull. Or you can replace the trigger with a bearing type trigger for $75, if you have that kind of money. It is adjustable.

The PU snipers the Russians used had a trigger pull of about 2 to 3 pounds (sometimes more, but not often) all they did is clean, shim and polish the trigger groups up.

Here only a few place you can go to see this. There is tons of info here http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3

More links

http://badone07.freeservers.com/MosinTriggerAdjustment/MosinReTrigger.html

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/mosin-nagant/51810-poor-boy-mosin-nagant-trigger-job.html

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=55398&highlight=trigger

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=55935&highlight=trigger+pull

[Dolk]

Your second problem with the tough bolt problem.

Make very sure you have the rifle clean and it has no cosmoline in it or it will stick. Especially when heated up.

The fact that you are seeing marks on the brass case usually means there is a "burr" in the chamber. That is what "usually" make those marks. If you can see it or feel it it can be polished out with a piece of dowel and very very fine sand paper. Just polish, don't destroy it. Or a gunsmith can do it pretty cheap. I had two of those and they can make it tough going.

lacquer was put on steel cases and can cause problems. Some brass has dried cosmoline on them also, but most brass is not coated at all. The steel was lacquered to keep them from rusting. Mostly by the Russians. Others used brass or brass or copper washed steel and it is not a problem and doesn't cause any problems.


First clean it up, but that won't take away the burrs on the case.

[dwa]

Your second problem with the tough bolt problem.

Make very sure you have the rifle clean and it has no cosmoline in it or it will stick. Especially when heated up.

The fact that you are seeing marks on the brass case usually means there is a "burr" in the chamber. That is what "usually" make those marks. If you can see it or feel it it can be polished out with a piece of dowel and very very fine sand paper. Just polish, don't destroy it. Or a gunsmith can do it pretty cheap. I had two of those and they can make it tough going.

lacquer was put on steel cases and can cause problems. Some brass has dried cosmoline on them also, but most brass is not coated at all. The steel was lacquered to keep them from rusting. Mostly by the Russians. Others used brass or brass or copper washed steel and it is not a problem and doesn't cause any problems.


First clean it up, but that won't take away the burrs on the case.

i originally though it was dirty but ive cleaned it every thourghly several times. im thinking it is the bur that you mentioned, i suspected it was something similiar to that. its had the same extraction issues with both steel and brassed case. the trigger isnt stiff at all it just takes a very long pull to fire, this maybe a 2 stage trigger i really dont know ive never fired one. also i tried swaping the bolt for the one from my m38 and its slightly easier to cycle it but still requires a sampson like effort. ive shot the same ammo out of the m38 that i do the 91/30

[TRAP55]

4 Things that cause "sticky bolt" in a Mosin are: stiff extractor, lacquer in the chamber, burr in the chamber, and rough bolt cam surfaces. All are easy fixes.
The long pull on the trigger is another easy fix, the most simple is replacing it with a pinned Finn trigger.

[Dolk]

i originally though it was dirty but ive cleaned it every thourghly several times. im thinking it is the bur that you mentioned, i suspected it was something similiar to that. its had the same extraction issues with both steel and brassed case. the trigger isnt stiff at all it just takes a very long pull to fire, this maybe a 2 stage trigger i really dont know ive never fired one. also i tried swaping the bolt for the one from my m38 and its slightly easier to cycle it but still requires a sampson like effort. ive shot the same ammo out of the m38 that i do the 91/30

I'll bet it has a burr in the chamber.

As for the long pull of the Russian triggers. It is a little annoying isn't it. Full tension for 5 miles or so it seems. That is why I like the Finn triggers. They are interchangable with the Russian trigger and are two stage. You can take up that slack under very little pressure right up to the second stage and then it has a crisp release just after that. And a Finn trigger is only about $15 to $20.

This replacement trigger is kind of expensive, but you can adjust it to do anything. Pull is adjustable and you can make it a hair trigger if you like. I own one and it is great, but I don't like having a trigger that cost more than the rifle!

http://www.huberconcepts.com/

Here is another article, but I worry about a couple of these tricks.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/improvingm44carbines/index.asp

I know yours is OK with "pull", but here is an article to reduce the pounds of pull needed. I tried this and it works good. I actually found a shim like this in one of my M39's.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinnaganttrigger/index.asp

A lot of these ideas are what the Russians used on the PU sniper rifles to make them so darn good.

Hope that helped some!

[milsurpshooter]

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/eliminatesbs/index.asp

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinnaganttrigger/index.asp

this is all you need.

[Demophilus]

I had a sticky chamber on my 91/30. Research on teh Intertubes said Russian Mosin chambers are notorious for collecting lacquer off milsurp ammo, particularly if you didn't get all the cosmo out of chamber in the first place. Apparently, you heat cosmo up, and it turns to both a solvent, and a kind of epoxy.

I saw an article somewhere on the Web that basically argued for cleaning the chamber with a power drill. I didn't do that on mine, but I did use wire brushes and bore mops for a 12 ga. and a .45, and was surprised at how much goop got dislodged.

Maybe the chamber's not as clean as you think?

[Dolk]

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...esbs/index.asp

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/mosinnaganttrigger/index.asp

this is all you need.

I still don't think he has "sticky bolt".

He has marks on the brass shell casing. Sticky bolt does not cause that. That's usually a burr in the chamber that causes those marks.

That and he said he cleaned it really well.

[6mmintl]

Bolt and trigger problems

Moison Trigger Improvements

The best way to improve the trigger on Moison Nagant M91/30, M38, M39, M44's, M53 and M91/56 is to:

Trigger and Trigger pin mod's:
Drill out trigger pin hole in trigger and receiver ears with a .165 drill, then cut the drill tang off (Dremel tool) to length for a trigger pin, this will insure .001 tolerances and make the trigger pull more consistent in weight from pull to pull.

Polish with a SQUARE fine hard Arkansas stone, the inside and the outside of the trigger bearing surfaces and the inside of the receiver ears to insure smooth movement and to remove any drilling burrs.

Sear Spring:
Too lower trigger poundage grind the back side (side viewed when assembled upside down) of the sear spring on a belt sander (being careful to cool and not burn metal) taking about .010 off (keeping thickness consistent/parallel) and then reassemble and test pull weight. Ideal weight is between 2.5 to 3.5 lbs for target shooting, add a pound if used for hunting.

Polish with a SQUARE fine hard Arkansas stone, the sear bearing surface (cocking piece bearing area) and square up the top surfaces (measure dimension parallel to bottom) for a sharp square edge.

Cocking piece:
Polish with a SQUARE fine hard Arkansas stone, the sear bearing surface removing any indentations or galling, square up and polish top surface to improve bearing surface to a sharp corner.

Some firing pins and bolt bodies are loose fitting and when you pull the trigger the cocking piece moves downward and you get a mushy first stage. I weld a small 1/16" diameter or smaller bead where shown and then grind/polish down till the pin/cocking piece does not bind with the bolt body, this greatly improves the crispness of the first stage.

The photo is of the weld bead prior to filing/stone polishing to "restrict the loose fit between the under-size firing pin diameter to the oversize bolt body".

Disassemble the bolt, remove the firing pin spring and reassemble the bolt body and firing pin. Move the firing pin up and down to determine slack/gap between cocking piece and bolt body (measured with feeler gage) at tip of cocking piece and bolt body. Weld up/on a bead as shown and adjust/grind/polish the weld bead height to HALF the measured slack/looseness/tolerance you measured with a feeler gage and reassemble bolt.

Basically you are creating a stop/support for the cocking piece movement during the initial trigger pull first stage and forcing sear engagement to define total trigger travel instead of the firing pin/bolt body gap, and sear engagement defining Total trigger travel.

It allows for a more crisp consistent pull weight and release.

Finnish M39 trigger:
The best way to get a really nice two stage trigger is to find/buy a Finnish M39 trigger and proceed with the above mods assembling and testing first and second stages.

Some trigger pulls may be too long and you can remove .010 off the top of the sear spring sear surface to reduce final stage/sear engagement and retest for engagement and pull weight.. Some may be too short and you may need a replacement sear spring but you may already know that before you start this whole process.

Final note:
After the above mods most all triggers will now drag on the stock or trigger guard, you could bed the action forcing it into the center of the trigger guard while it cures, or you can open up the trigger guard trigger slot with a file or on a milling machine, this insures no trigger contact and you end up with a consistent pull and release.

I hope this helps unravel the mysteries of the Moison.





About hard turning bolt:

A little tune up of the bolt body and cocking piece is all it needs.

If you look on the top of the cocking ramp/cocking piece you'll see a little ridge, if you look on the bolt body you will see a corresponding V groove in the bolt body that the cocking piece sits in in the cocked/open position.

If you stone down the top of the V in the cocking piece and touch up smooth the edge's of the V groove in the Bolt body you will have a much smoother break/closure during the initial turning down of the bolt.

Another area to look at is for Chamber burrs in the 2:00 oclock to 5:00 o'clock from the extractor rubbing against tht chamber end (closing bolt on empty chamber) and rolling a burr into the chamber, check for scrapes in that area from extraction, if you have them you will need to deburr and or polich chamber edges.

You do not need to cut any coils off of the firing pin spring to get a smoother less effort bolt lift to load the Moison 91 rifle.
The Moison 91/30 and all its variants already have a very slow lock-time due too the heavy mass of metal/parts (cocking piece) attached to the firing pin and spring, removing firing pin coils only slows down the locktime more and may cause misfires (light striker hits) in cold weather.