FUD and determining whether a C&R is 50 years old

[Tovarish]

Hi all,

Does anyone know if there are any guidelines for what constitutes proof that a pistol is over 50 years old when it's (1) not on the C&R list and (2) continued to be produced within the last 50 years? And specifically when the manufacturer no longer exists?

This would include the Star Model Super B that every surplus site currently has. They were produced from 1946 until the early 1980s. Starting just this year, the Hungarian FEG PA-63 also falls under this category, as they began production in 1963 and aren't on the C&R list. I believe it might also apply to various FN Browning Hi-Powers and the CZ vzor 45.

I know you can find lots of information online to determine the age of any widely-produced pistol. The Star Super B does not have the date marked on it, but it does have a proof mark that corresponds to a year. All it takes is a quick Google search for "Star Model B proof marks." But it doesn't seem like a third-party website would pass muster for some FFL.

If it were an old S&W, I'm sure you could find that information in any number of books or by calling the manufacturer. But in cases like Star or FEG, the manufacturer no longer exists, the firearm is rather obscure, and various fan sites and forums seem to be the only source of information.

Someone suggested contacting the importer. That may work if the importer is still around, but many aren't (KBI) and not all imports are marked.

So has anyone tried this with an old early production Star Super B or something else? What was the outcome? And what is the minimum proof required that a gun is over 50 years old?

Thanks everyone.

[Capybara]

In the case of the FEG and Star pistols, both were imported, neither is a domestically built gun. I believe that the ATF determines judgement on C&R status when the pistols are imported so the importer (Century it seems in 90% of the cases) should know the gun's C&R status when they sell it to the dealer. In private party transactions from non-imported guns, this is difficult to determine and to prove but in the case of distributors and dealers, I think this is something that the ATF and importer determine when the guns are imported, the batch's status is determined. I could be wrong, but I think there is something noted or different in the paperwork for the importer when the import regular guns versus C&R guns, there at least is a notation and there may actually be different paperwork filed?

Witness the Albanian stored batches of Sino/Soviet SKS that have washed over us the past couple of years. Determining manufacturing dates on Chinese SKS can be tricky but the ATF definitely ruled these were C&R eligible, they had to have or the SKS would not have been importable into the US, due to the Chinese arms ban for military rifles. I don't know why the FEGs and Star Supers would be any different? As far as what proof is needed in the case of a private party sale of a non-import marked pistol, proof of manufacturing date from a published, industry accepted BOOK by an known expert would be a lot better than Internet information. Correlation between multiple published sources would be even better, if a case ever made it to court.

[TRAP55]

Star Model B's are proofed with a date code.

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/proof.shtml

[Tovarish]

Capybara: thank you. So it sounds like buying one of these on Gunbroker is a risky proposition, absent clear approval from the FFL before buying

[billybob_jcv]

At the end of the day, it's the FFLs involved in the sale that make the call. Heck, there have been plenty of stories here about FFLs that won't treat C&R guns as C&R. You could probably walk in with a letter signed by B. Todd Jones and they still wouldn't call it C&R.

[justin4fun]

I agree with Capy but every gun will be different. Some will be easy and some impossible. You can always write to ATF and see if they respond. That is how many were added to the list. I don't know if they will even acknowledge it but that is how all these CZ 82 pistols got here. Most aren't even 50 years old yet.

[Tovarish]

I read that a museum director wrote the letter that got the CZ-82 added. Museums have special authority about historical interest.

It would be nice to get someone who operates a museum to attest to some of these. It would have to be a museum dedicated to military history or to the history of the country of origin.

I might lobby the Basque Museum in Idaho (for some reason the Basques emigrated to Idaho) to write about the Stars. Firearm produced in the Basque and used nationally by Spain until it was discontinued? Should be an easy call.

Edit: looks like it needs to be a city, state, or federal museum. Oh well...