Sac Valley Military Silhouette Match Winners

[Pthfndr]

With all the talk about needing a Swede Mauser to win, I went back through the results I've saved and compiled a list of the scores for the highest score and 2nd highest score in the As Issued class and the Open class.

The list gives the match date, the model rifle and score (ex: Swede M96/score of 38)

As can be seen, for the last 1-1/2 years the Swede has dominated the As Issued class for highest score, but not always the 2nd highest score. IMO, a big reason for the popularity of the Swede in the As Issued class is not just it's inherent accuracy, but because the bullets used are very good ballistically, the round is much more forgiving of errors by the shooter in doping the wind. The felt recoil also makes them much easier to shoot compared to the .30 cal and 8mm cartridges.

In the Open class Swedes have won only slightly more than 25%, and had the 2nd highest score only 15% of the time. This is largely due to the fact that the Swiss rifles and more easily scoped without drilling and tapping the receiver and there are fewer Swedes in the Open class. But as can be seen by the scores in the Open class, other rifles are also very accurate.

And before Pro NRA says Swedes have dominated the Target class, that class has been almost exclusively Swede Mauser target rifles. But they've been beat by a K31 there also

[2shotjoe]

Swede still in my sights but something else is in the mix for now. I'll get one after summer.

Bruce wished he owned a Droid RAZR.

[ducky_0811]

I shoot both swede and Swiss recreationally, never shot a sac match, although I would love to in the future, and I find that accuracy between the two is about the same with my hand loads. I think the factor that needs to be put into this equation is not only the rifle and cartridge fired, but the shooter as well. Every time I see the rants about how you can't win the match without anything but a swede, it makes me cringe. There are three parts to shooting, the bow, the arrow, and most importantly, the archer!

[1-M-42]

Great post Rob, thanks for pulling all that data.

Ducky, that's what I've been saying for the past year!, thanks for the backup!

[6mmintl]

Sheer numbers Gentlemen, if we had more M91 Carcano shooters they would be dominating these matches.

[pro-nra]

Frank has a good point that sheer number has something to do it with certain rifle dominating a particular match.

Looking at the data this is what we are looking at from highest percentage of Match Winner to lowest:
M96 Swedish Mauser won it 55.56%
03-A3/1903 won it won it 25.93%
K31 Swiss won it 14.81%
M1 Garand won it 3.70% (This is an incredible feat for Steve P winning the match with his IHC Garand)

Although if you shoot the Swede M96 your changes of winning the match is 55+%, the biggest factor of winning this match is going to church on Tuesdays. Per the data the OP provided 70+% of the past Match Winner is a Tuesday church goer. Therefore if you really want to increase your chances of winning the match to 70+%, you need to attend Tuesday's church service first and compound that by shooting an M96 Swede.

As a side note, Mauser rifles won the Match winner a total of 81.49%
Swiss won the Match winner a total of 14.81%
M1 Garand won the Match winner a total of 3.70%

Therefore I believe the data is flawed as I don't see a Hyper Accurate $89 Mosin winning a single match. Being a sub MOA rifle (Josh Smith's word not mine) it should win each and every match. Maybe it they need to show up on the line more and be represented?

[BLR81]

While the numbers seem to favor the Swedes, the real story is that the best shooters favor the Swedes. I would hazard to guess that 70% of the match winners are in the top 5 shooters at the matches.

The fact that they like the Swedes should be enough to warrant others looking into trying them. Now those same shooters may win as many matches with a Swiss, 03-A3, or Garand, but they're choosing to shoot a Swede should tell us that Swedes might be the best choice for our matches.

What I looked at when I saw Pthfndr's post was which rifles came in second. In the as issued class again the M96 Swedes ruled with the 03-A3's the 2nd highest. But in the Scoped class, the 2nd highest ranking was the K31, which tells me that the K31 is easier to scope without ruining the value of the rifle.

So, in the scoped class I think the K31s rule because their accurate and easy to scope so there are more of them. In the as issued class, the best shooters like the Swedes because of the accuracy, good sights and low recoil.

But, my choice would be based on what I like esthetically, and find fun to shot. Whether I ever get good enough to win a match with my choice of weapons would just be a bonus.

[jlmurphy]

It's not just the rifles and the shooters, the B.C. of the 6.5 bullets compared to the .30's makes a big difference. Both bullets launched at the same velocity, the higher B.C. bullet will arrive sooner with less wind drift. The 6.5 may catch the edge of an animal, the .30 misses, just a few points will win the match.

[Mustang]

... the B.C. of the 6.5 bullets compared to the .30's makes a big difference. Both bullets launched at the same velocity, the higher B.C. bullet will arrive sooner with less wind drift. The 6.5 may catch the edge of an animal, the .30 misses, just a few points will win the match.

I can't agree that the higher BC of the 6.5 bullets makes a big difference. Does it make a difference? Sure...a little.

These silhouettes, with the exception of the turkeys, are 4 or 5 MOA wide and 2 or 3 MOA high at the distances that they are placed. The Turkeys are a little smaller. Hitting them is not a function of absolute tack-driving accuracy. More accuracy obviously is better than less, but the difference that the higher BC of the 6.5 mm bullet makes is small.

There is another issue with the 6.5 mm bullets...they are the lightest usually fired at this match and that shows up in the number of ram "ringers" (silhouette is hit, but does not fall) that are fired during a match. The rams weigh in the neighborhood of 60 lbs and are tougher to knock over than the other silhouettes. Shooters are forbidden to "soft-set" the rams during the monthly matches, so there are usually a few "ringers" on the rams, with the 6.5 Swede shooters accounting for the majority.

I'm not saying that other calibers do not occasionally ring the rams (although I've been using 200 gr 8mm Mauser loads and haven't gotten one yet), but the 6.5 x 55 shooters seem to get the most.

As I've said in the past, I believe there is one overwhelming reason that good shooters select the Swedish Mauser and that the Swedish Mauser does so well and it doesn't have anything to do with the BC of the bullet. I would venture to say that every winning M96 Swedish Mauser that is shot in this match is equipped with a non-military issue rear sight that allows for fine elevation and in some cases windage adjustments.

[sacto929]

Pthfndr's post and the subsequent discussion made me want to take a harder look at the complete data. I have match results back to May 2012, as it took a while to get on Tom's mailing list, and thus far, a few things stick out from the preliminary analysis:

1. The match winners have been the same three or four shooters, with a couple of exceptions.
2. The M96 Swede really rose to prominence in the Summer of 2012.

To the first point, these shooters have a ton of experience, and practice weekly. The shooter has a first order effect on the results of the match, and the amount of practice/experience plays a large part in that.

To the second point, I think Mustang is on to something with his quote below:

As I've said in the past, I believe there is one overwhelming reason that good shooters select the Swedish Mauser and that the Swedish Mauser does so well and it doesn't have anything to do with the BC of the bullet. I would venture to say that every winning M96 Swedish Mauser that is shot in this match is equipped with a non-military issue rear sight that allows for fine elevation and in some cases windage adjustments.

The fine elevation adjustment is critical, in my experience. I am a relative novice compared to the guys winning the matches, and I have found that my biggest challenge is maintaining a consistent sight picture of the crisp front sight in relation to the fuzzy target and fuzzy rear sight. I have a lot of close misses as a result of thinking I have the same picture, but it's off just a little. The best score I have tallied was with my M1 Garand. The M1 has the finest elevation and windage adjustment of standard, as-issued battle sights. I think that it makes a huge difference when compared to the adjustments on the K31 and 03A3.

I do want to see what analysis of the data shows, but it may take another couple of days to put it together. If anyone has the full match results back past May 2012, please PM me. It would be good to have as much data as possible.

[Gutter]

Need to determine the points total to establish an "average" shooter and determine "points above replacement" (what can I say, I like baseball metrics) for all shooters. Then you can check the delta of guns used from shooter to shooter and check to see how many extra points a Swede is worth vs a K31, 03A3, etc. That should give you a better measure of how these rifles perform generally.

[Flyin Brian]

I can't agree that the higher BC of the 6.5 bullets makes a big difference. Does it make a difference? Sure...a little.

These silhouettes, with the exception of the turkeys, are 4 or 5 MOA wide and 2 or 3 MOA high at the distances that they are placed. The Turkeys are a little smaller. Hitting them is not a function of absolute tack-driving accuracy. More accuracy obviously is better than less, but the difference that the higher BC of the 6.5 mm bullet makes is small.

There is another issue with the 6.5 mm bullets...they are the lightest usually fired at this match and that shows up in the number of ram "ringers" (silhouette is hit, but does not fall) that are fired during a match. The rams weigh in the neighborhood of 60 lbs and are tougher to knock over than the other silhouettes. Shooters are forbidden to "soft-set" the rams during the monthly matches, so there are usually a few "ringers" on the rams, with the 6.5 Swede shooters accounting for the majority.

I'm not saying that other calibers do not occasionally ring the rams (although I've been using 200 gr 8mm Mauser loads and haven't gotten one yet), but the 6.5 x 55 shooters seem to get the most.

As I've said in the past, I believe there is one overwhelming reason that good shooters select the Swedish Mauser and that the Swedish Mauser does so well and it doesn't have anything to do with the BC of the bullet. I would venture to say that every winning M96 Swedish Mauser that is shot in this match is equipped with a non-military issue rear sight that allows for fine elevation and in some cases windage adjustments.

^^^QFT

Let's have a grudge match where the Swede shooters take their Vasteras sight adjusters off and see what happens??

[Pthfndr]

I do want to see what analysis of the data shows, but it may take another couple of days to put it together. If anyone has the full match results back past May 2012, please PM me. It would be good to have as much data as possible.

I have the match results for the dates I listed above. PM me your email address and I'll email them to you.

[jlmurphy]

The M96 Swedish Mausers without the Vasteras inserts would be in trouble. The fine adjustment of elevation is crucial to obtaining a good sight picture, just "holding a little bit high or low" on an animal doesn't work. The best "as issued" rifle is the M39 Finnish Mosin, it's rear sight has many more graduations than any Mauser. As for the B.C. difference between 6.5 bullets and .30 cal., I have a long range rifle in 6.5X55 and I love to shoot against .308 Win. rifles in matches, it isn't a fair fight.

[Mustang]

The M96 Swedish Mausers without the Vasteras inserts would be in trouble. The fine adjustment of elevation is crucial to obtaining a good sight picture, just "holding a little bit high or low" on an animal doesn't work. The best "as issued" rifle is the M39 Finnish Mosin, it's rear sight has many more graduations than any Mauser. As for the B.C. difference between 6.5 bullets and .30 cal., I have a long range rifle in 6.5X55 and I love to shoot against .308 Win. rifles in matches, it isn't a fair fight.

The elevation adjustment on the M39's is amazing. I think they may be 25 yard spacings.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not diss'ing the superiority of the 6.5 mm bullets for long range work, although the 200 gr 8mm bullet is no slouch in that department (advertised BC is .520). I just believe that there are other factors which loom larger.

Personally, I think the 7x57 round might be an ideal round for this match...very high BC bullets with greater weight than the 6.5mm bullets. Maybe one of these days...