log book

[jamesob]

you guys have answered a few ?'s for me already and i have a few more. do i need to enter the c&r rifles that i had prior to my license? also can i buy 2 pistols and have them sent to a 01 dealer and dros at the same time or does the 1 gun 30 day rule apply if i do it that way?

[ke6guj]

you don't need to enter your pre-license C&R firearms into your logbook unless you are selling them while licensed. In that case, you would log the firearm into the book, noting that it was acquired pre-license and then log it out to the buyer.

If you are buying pistols, C&R or modern, from/through and 01 FFL, the 1-in-30 days does apply unless you have a COE along with your C&R. The Certificate of Elegibility exempts you from the 1-in-30 day rule for ALL handguns, C&R and modern. And with the COE+C&R, you can cash-and-carry any C&R firearms (not sure if it only applies to 50+ year old C&R's, or also listed <50 year old C&R's). You do have to do the DROS, but you don't have to wait, just take them home right then.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

...And with the COE+C&R, you can cash-and-carry any C&R firearms (not sure if it only applies to 50+ year old C&R's, or also listed <50 year old C&R's).

It applies to all C&R firearms.

that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.

[ccandgc]

a noob question.....Im waiting on my C&R....when they require a "bound" book, is there a special book I need to buy, or is it just a plain old bound book, say like one of my kids black and white spelling books?

Thanks!
Chad

[savasyn]

you don't need to enter your pre-license C&R firearms into your logbook unless you are selling them while licensed. In that case, you would log the firearm into the book, noting that it was acquired pre-license and then log it out to the buyer.

Really? I had not heard that before, therefore I was under the impression that they could be sold FTF like any other person without an 03 FFL and without logging.

I don't have a problem with that, I'd just never heard that that was the case.

[ke6guj]

a noob question.....Im waiting on my C&R....when they require a "bound" book, is there a special book I need to buy, or is it just a plain old bound book, say like one of my kids black and white spelling books?

From the ATF FAQ:

(E1) What is a "bound book?" [Back]

A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.

[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]

There are blank log book sheets available on-line that you can print out and then fill out with a pen.

[ke6guj]

Really? I had not heard that before, therefore I was under the impression that they could be sold FTF like any other person without an 03 FFL and without logging.

178.125 (f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors.

Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and shall note on the record the method used. The format required for the record of receipt and disposition of firearms by collectors is as follows:

The regulations say that the disposition of all C&Rs must be logged. It doesn't say, "only log the disposition of C&R's that are already in your logbood"

edit: However, ATF has writen opinion letters stating both confirming that "pre-licensed C&R" have to be logged in first before they are sold, and other letters stating that if if was bought pre-license, then it does not ever need to be entered in the book, even when selling while licensed. My opinion is to run your log book with as much info as possible. Better to have extra log info, then not enough. Think of it this way, if you had a C&R rifle that you DROSed from Big5/Turners and did not use your 03, but logged it anyways and and had an audit. If it didn't need to be logged, no big deal. But say that they audit you after they had audited Big5/Turners, and are looking to see if you properly logged the transaction, and you didn't, oh oh!.

[savasyn]

Got it, good to know.
Thanks!

[ke6guj]

oops, was editing while you posted.

[ccandgc]

From the ATF FAQ:



There are blank log book sheets available on-line that you can print out and then fill out with a pen.

Got it....thanks! Anyone have a link to the blank pages? I'll search in the meantime....

chad

[Zebra]

blank log book sheets

try this: http://www.surplusrifle.com/graphics/boundbookpage.pdf

Frank

Got it....thanks! Anyone have a link to the blank pages? I'll search in the meantime....

chad

[savasyn]

Think of it this way, if you had a C&R rifle that you DROSed from Big5/Turners and did not use your 03, but logged it anyways and and had an audit. If it didn't need to be logged, no big deal. But say that they audit you after they had audited Big5/Turners, and are looking to see if you properly logged the transaction, and you didn't, oh oh!.

Just so I'm totally clear, we only need to log pre-licensed rifles when they are being sold, not just possessed, correct?

What about rifles purchased via DROSed from 01 FFLs while licensed, do those need to go in, or just if sold?

Sorry for all the questions about this, I just want to make sure I understand it completely(and it's even sorta on topic.)

Thanks again.

[ke6guj]

Correct, common consensis on the C&R forums is that pre-licensed C&R firearms only have to be logged if they are being sold. They don't have to be logged if they remain in your collection.

Best bet on buying a C&R firearm from an 01FFL is to log in the firearm upon purchase, even if you did not "use" the 03 to actually make the purchase. You ARE licensed, you don't USE your license. All transactions that occur while your are licensed are supposed to be logged in your bound book.

[ccandgc]

try this: http://www.surplusrifle.com/graphics/boundbookpage.pdf

Frank

Thank you Frank!!

chad

[savasyn]

Best bet on buying a C&R firearm from an 01FFL is to log in the firearm upon purchase, even if you did not "use" the 03 to actually make the purchase. You ARE licensed, you don't USE your license. All transactions that occur while your are licensed are supposed to be logged in your bound book.

Makes sense. So that requires getting the 01FFL's license number, correct? Are the employees licensed or is the store? Specifically, do I need to get a number from "Bob" at "Gun-R-Us" or just the number for "Guns-R-Us"?

What about stuff from the CMP?

Thanks for taking the time to clear this up for me!