Molot M44's

[peppermintman]

I'm hearing about tinkered with M44's. What that mean for the buyer/collector? I don't own one but tell my friends to keep an eye out for that diamond shappped refurb mark. Are they worth asking about before the buyer unexpectedly decides buying? There's another forum and guys/gals feel very strongly about them.

[emcon5]

I'm hearing about tinkered with M44's.

Not from anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.

What that mean for the buyer/collector? I don't own one but tell my friends to keep an eye out for that diamond shappped refurb mark. Are they worth asking about before the buyer unexpectedly decides buying? There's another forum and guys/gals feel very strongly about them.

It means they are able to buy guns from Russia, that otherwise they would not.

[peppermintman]

Not from anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.



It means they are able to buy guns from Russia, that otherwise they would not.

Yes I think you're right on that comment of being able to buy. [IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Above is the mark of the Molot. The three Mosins at this pawn shop didn't have that mark anywhere, and I was looking at these rifles good. I just think interesting some have the diamond mark and others dont

[kellyhachihachi]

How much do they want for the Hakim?

Edit: Thats not in riverside by any chance is it?

[emcon5]

Above is the mark of the Molot. The three Mosins at this pawn shop didn't have that mark anywhere, and I was looking at these rifles good.

Did you take the handguard off? I understand the latest batch of imports the Molot marking are on top of the barrel, like in the photo you posted, covered by the handguard.

I just think interesting some have the diamond mark and others dont

Yes, it is a commercial mark for the rifles from Russia, that are being processed by Molot and sold as "Hunting rifles" so they can get around restrictions on military arms crossing the EU. Most of the earlier imports came from Ukraine, and therefore were not processed by Molot.

Of course Molot rifles are refurbs, but so are nearly every rifle coming out of the former Soviet Union, some more than once. I have not seen any indication Molot is doing anything to these rifles beyond wiping off some of the cosmoline, marking them for export with a commercial Russian proof, serial number, making some notations in the included instruction book, and boxing them up for shipping.

I haven't seen any discussion specific to the M38 or M44s, but there was a lot of talk about the authenticity of of the Molot PU Sniper rifles when they first appeared. At the time, Brent "Tuco" Snodgrass posted this:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=2211717#post2211717

These came from the Bryansk military storage facility

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...66#post2211866 (asked about documentation with the rifles)

Yes & no but I know as fact this is where they came from. I tried to buy these over a year ago. I'm limited in what I can say as I am under a confidentiality agreement (not from Io as I was bidding against them). Still I can state 100% as fact that is where these came from. There are no more snipers there at least none for sale. In time more info will come out on these & maybe "other" stuff as well. But to answer your question LC, there is paperwork but not paperwork with each rifle. Still as I saw the rifles there I am pretty sure where these came from.

And Vic Thomas posted this:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?p=2227137#post2227137

Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles"

I don't see anything that would indicate the newer Molot processed rifles are any different.

For the price they are selling these, I can't see them doing anything extra, (aside from trivial stuff, like "this rifle is missing a barrel band") as there is no money in it. Even in Russia, labor costs money, and any real refurb work would destroy their profit margins.

[Bobby Ricigliano]

I got a Molot M44 and a Molot M38, both were in breathtakingly perfect condition. The line out force match on the M38 floor plate was the only imperfection on an otherwise factory new looking rifle, correct M38 stock and all.

[peppermintman]

I got a Molot M44 and a Molot M38, both were in breathtakingly perfect condition. The line out force match on the M38 floor plate was the only imperfection on an otherwise factory new looking rifle, correct M38 stock and all.

Interesting you mention condition. I'm gonna post the link to the other site when I get home. Let me just guess ok? These guys feel that when buying a Mosin that it shouldn't be refinished. I'm talking about re blueing and redoing wood and touching up metatal parts. Guys/gals there I think...feel that stuff shouldn't be done. Do some Mosin people want a touched up Mosin or one with original bluing and original wood I agree with them I'd like my rifle original and not tinkered with.

Will post site of Mosin site later. I look at these like an SKS. You want it original or tinkered with . Which you prefer?

[peppermintman]

Interesting you mention condition. I'm gonna post the link to the other site when I get home. Let me just guess ok? These guys feel that when buying a Mosin that it shouldn't be refinished. I'm talking about re blueing and redoing wood and touching up metatal parts. Guys/gals there I think...feel that stuff shouldn't be done. Do some Mosin people want a touched up Mosin or one with original bluing and original wood I agree with them I'd like my rifle original and not tinkered with.

Will post site of Mosin site later. I look at these like an SKS. You want it original or tinkered with . Which you prefer?

http://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=13786

[emcon5]

Interesting you mention condition. I'm gonna post the link to the other site when I get home. Let me just guess ok? These guys feel that when buying a Mosin that it shouldn't be refinished. I'm talking about re blueing and redoing wood and touching up metatal parts.

If they want a rifle that is not refinished, they they don't want to buy any Mosin that has been imported from the former Soviet Union. Because they pretty much have ALL been refinished at some point, by the Soviets. They were refinished after the war, and possibly again before they were sent into long term storage.

If they want an original rifle, then they need to look for ones that did not spend time in the Soviet Union after the war. Maybe a Remington or Westinghouse that never made it to Russia, or a Spanish Civil War rifle, or one of the Yugo un-scoped snipers.

Guys/gals there I think...feel that stuff shouldn't be done. Do some Mosin people want a touched up Mosin or one with original bluing and original wood

They are ALL touched up, and not by Molot. And you will never know if it has original wood, the Soviets didn't number them. All you can really tell is if the stock is the right era (pre-war, wartime, postwar). Occasionally you can tell if it is the same maker (Tula, Izhevsk).

I agree with them I'd like my rifle original and not tinkered with.

What you are missing is that all the evidence points to the Soviets doing the touching up prior to the rifles going into long term storage. They reblued them, counter bored them if they thought it was necessary, stamped it with various refurb marks, like this one:

Slathered them with cosmoline and packed them away for the next war, or to ship to someone friendly who needed them. By the way, that refurb mark is on my PW Arms imported 91/30, from Ukraine. No Russian/Molot markings.

http://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.co...p?f=64&t=13786

Did you read that thread?

Guys, this ГИС mark is simply "proof of safety". It literally means "state (goverment) trial (test) stand".

[NOTABIKER]

My 1944 M1 referb
My 1943 M1 carbine referb
my 1943 1903A3 remington referb
this is normal ,i see no problem. better a referb than a beater with worn out parts.

[peppermintman]

My 1944 M1 referb
My 1943 M1 carbine referb
my 1943 1903A3 remington referb
this is normal ,i see no problem. better a referb than a beater with worn out parts.

I agree. They probably were But I think it was done long long ago. I don't know when Molot started doing it so maybe its their concern. Easy as that.

[emcon5]

I agree. They probably were But I think it was done long long ago. I don't know when Molot started doing it so maybe its their concern. Easy as that.

The first batch of Molot processed rifles was July of last year.

Has there been any evidence at all that Molot is doing anything to these rifles beyond what Vic says about the PU Snipers?

Just so you guys know- the guns were purchased from another party and Molot's only part in the action was the "commercial" sale and transfer of the rifles to circumvent a restriction of military weapons being transported across the EU. Thats why they are proofed and sold as "hunting rifles"

If Molot reworked them, they did the same crappy job on mine the old Soviet armorers did on my non-Molot rifles. The shellac is scratched and flaking off, and there are dings in the wood and metal. If there is anything that indicates these were reworked by Molot, I will change my opinion, until then, I will say your tinfoil hat is a little too tight.

As to the dreaded diamond stamp you seem to be so spun up about, I did some digging, and it belongs to the CIP Proof House of Klimovsk

Ref, Forensic Ballistics in Court: Interpretation and Presentation of Firearms ... By Brian J. Heard, page 60, Figure 3.0.6





Klimovsk:
Proof-House for the proof of small arms
2 bld., Zavodskaja str.
RUS-142 181 Klimovsk
Russia
Head: Vladimir A. Artemov

E-Mail: tsniitochmash @ podolsk.ru
Tel: +7-095-580 56 06
Fax: +7-095-996 59 10

Russia is a C.I.P. Member State.

According to C.I.P.rules, Small arms manufacturers and importers within the C.I.P. member countries are obliged to request one of the accredited Proof Houses to perform the proofing of all arms they manufacture or import. No small arm can be put on the market in any of the C.I.P. member states without prior successful proofing in an accredited proof house according to the C.I.P. decisions.

In other words, they cannot be sold in/from Russia without being proofed at a CIP Proof house. Yeah, it sucks that it has to be there, but the alternative is these rifles never leave Russia, or are melted for scrap.

Ukraine is not part of C.I.P., that is why the Ukrainian imports do not have additional proof marks.