Cash & Carry a previously DROS'd Weapon?

[Bobby Ricigliano]

I apologize if this has been covered....I have a Sino-Soviet SKS with early serial numbers, definitely cash & carry eligible, but I dros'd it when I bought it and I have no recollection or paperwork left from the sale.

If I liquidate this rifle before the end of the year, can I FTF it and if so, how is that correctly entered into the bound book?

I guess the same question applies for previous cash & carry deals where neither party had an 03 and neither party kept records from the sale.

Any input is most welcome!

[C&Rtrader]

You enter it into and out of your bound book just like any other rifle. The "acquisition" and sale date will be the same. Might want to make a note as to why in the event you are ever audited.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

If you DROS'd it while you were a C&R FFL then you should have logged it into your bound book at that time as an acquisition from the gun shop. Then if you sell it before the end of the year you just log it out to the buyer. You'll need to see their drivers license or similar government picture ID.

If you DROS'd it before you became a C&R FFL then log it in and out of you bound book at the same time, like C&Rtrader mentioned above. In the receipt area of the bound book entry you just put something like "acquired prior to being licenced" and then log it out to the buyer.

[Marcus von W.]

Actually, if you acquired it before you got your C&R license, you are not required to log it into your bound book at all, although you can if you want to.

Until Dec. 31, it's cash and carry.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Actually, if you acquired it before you got your C&R license, you are not required to log it into your bound book at all...

This is incorrect. The regs require licensed collectors to record each disposition of a C&R firearm.

[Shorthair]

That is my understanding. C&Rs owned before you obtained your 03FFL may be entered into your bound book. However, C&R's owned before you obtained your 03FFL but sold while you have a current 03 must be recorded in your bound book.

[Shredwell]

What if a non C&R FFL person bought a C&R rifle from out of state, had it shipped to a California FFL and DROS'ed? Can it be then sold ftf to another non C&R FFL person?

[Mssr. Eleganté]

What if a non C&R FFL person bought a C&R rifle from out of state, had it shipped to a California FFL and DROS'ed? Can it be then sold ftf to another non C&R FFL person?

Yes. Until the new law goes into effect on January 1, 2014. Just make sure the buyer is a California resident who's at least 18 years old.

[ke6guj]

This is Fud. Any records from a old C&R are not required to be kept/reported. You would have had to get the C&R's from another in state resident and would not be able to acquire them from interstate transfer. There would be no requirement to log such items. You'd be creating a log on your own stuff were none exists. I would not do such a thing. Makes no sense since you didn't get any special privilege (like interstate transfer from dealers) that any other citizens, within the state, could not get (cash/carry). I'd ONLY log those items I acquired as a direct result of my C&R license where another was logged against me. Like 01 interstate transfers to 03 or in state shipping from 03 to 03 were a record was needed logged.

this is not FUD. ATF has stated that you ARE licensed as an 03FFL, you don't USE your license. all C&R activities that occur WHILE you are licensed shall be entered into your bound book. It doesn't matter if that Garand that you sell today was acquired pre-license, the transfer of it to the buyer must be logged. And if you buy a Mosin Nagant from Big5 or Turners today, even though you might not have USED your 03FFL, you still have to log the acquisition of that rifle into your bound book.

[ke6guj]

You can tell on yourself if you want to, even if it makes absolutely no sense. I've been over the paperwork and I haven't found that stated anywhere. Only with regard to items acquired with the license. Any citizen of the state can buy a firearm from a 01 or do a cash/carry on a C&R and there is no bound book requirement. It doesn't even remotely make sense. The whole point of the book it to keep track of items bought from interstate transfers since no other record exists once 01 sends it to you. It is en essence your own personal DROS collection log w/o the fees.

here's just one example where you must must log all acquisitions, even those made from an 01, http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...io-relics.html

"Must enter into the A/D record all curios and relics acquired ."

it doesn't say "must enter all C&R's acquired USING your 03FFL"

and there are other ATF letters posted on the net re-iterating this and that you have to log the disposition of pre-license acquisitions if you sell them while licensed.

Like going after some of the fools who are buying crates of rifles and selling constantly in the private firearm sales sections under the guise of "collection efforts". They aren't looking to burden Joe Blow who buys a few rifles and who really dose do infrequent trades/sales. They are looking for the guys selling all the time and at a mark up who are misusing the C&R status openly. These are the tools that have ruined the C&R option in CA and the reason you will need to self register come 2014. That way they can see much more easily who is buying a truck load of C&R rifles and moving them since they will be much more traceable (complete paper trail now from 01 to 03 (self register) and from 03 w/certificate of eligibility to 4473 ect) than they are now.

I don't disagree with you on that, but that doesn't mean that even though you probably will never appear on their radar that you can be lax in your required recordkeeping.

if you don't want to do that, then that is on you (and you'll probably never catch any blowback by not properly logging), but I would suggest to others thinking the same way to do their own research on the matter. Me, I'd rather have extra info in my bound book instead of not enough.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

Here's the actual regs from the CFR...

each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics.

[outlawman123]

Hello all . I also have a question about c&r protocol. I am selling a rifle that meets the criteria for a c&r item . But I am not exactly sure what I need to do to complete the sale? I bought it originally from a local gun shop and it was dros and i waited the ten days and picked it up. So now if I wanna sell it to a private party do I need to do anything in particular to complete the sale

Thanks

[outlawman123]

Yes I have listed it . But what info do I need from the buyer and will it still be listed under my name in the doj's records. And do I need to have the buyer sign any type of paper work besides a bill of sale ie transfer of ownership ??

[Ritchie8719]

caguy, you are wrong. What Mssr. posted doesn't mention how you got your C&R, only that when you get rid of ANY C&R you have to put it in the book. You are the one stretching things.

And, as you mentioned, when the license lapses let it and throw the book away. They really don't care.

[TRICKSTER]

It says C&R and yes you'd log all C&R's you got with the C&R licence. It is common sense. To stretch that into something more than it's not is a bit of a leap. Logging a 4473'd acquired (from a 01 with residence verification, DROS, 2 form of ID) firearm or a C&R that was bought from another CA resident that is not a C&R holder (and thus required to log, since you will log) and legal cash/carry for any member of the state just makes no sense.

I have read all the paperwork and have not seen anything that makes mention of any/all firearms having to be logged. When you think about it, it just doesn't make much sense. I even remember a Q/A a few years ago where this was asked and the response was no. I can't find it on the BATFE site now though and I've since tossed my packet (no longer C&R holder).

Well there are these Federal Regulations

licensed collector shall maintain such records of importation, production, shipment, receipt, sale, or other disposition, whether temporary or permanent, of firearms and such records of the disposition of ammunition as the regulations contained in this part prescribe. Section 922(m) of the Act makes it unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector knowingly to make any false entry in, to fail to make appropriate entry in, or to fail to properly maintain any such record.Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. (1) Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and note on the record the method used.

And then there is this ATF letter

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2001/01/011801-openletter-ffl-collectors-curio-relics.html

Just because you didn't bother to read the rules doesn't mean that they don't exist.