PINFIRE REVOLVER, HELP!!

[jgreengiant]

I have a fellow police officer who just inherited an old six shot PinFire Revolver from his dad's estate who inherited it from his granddad's estate and we can not determine the manufacturer or much else about it. It is in excellent mechanical condition and for it's age the wood and metal finish is very good. Caliber is slightly larger than a 38 Special. It has a 3 & 1/2" barrel with six groves. It has the #31 stamped into the side of the frame and again on the rear of the barrel assembly.[/B] Cylinder and Barrel has a Proof Mark that consists of what looks like an inverted V with some type design on top. I initially thought it was a crown, but, under magnification I am not sure. I have looked at numerous Proof Marks and Revolvers that I have located online and have not found anything that matches the revolver or proof marks. I am hoping some of you guys are more experienced and knowledgeable than me and can assist me in assisting a fellow officer. I have attached two photographs of the gun and if anyone needs additional information and or photographs please let me know. Oh, I have completely disassembled the gun and there is no serial number or any other marks other than those described above.

[Mike A]

"Fools rush in," so here I come....WELCOME TO THE BOARD!!! Thanks for posting.

I know next to nothing about pinfire revolvers, and they are kind of an odd corner of collecting. And VERY few people shoot them, although there are a few true shotgun nuts who collect, reload, and shoot pinfire shotguns. I think they get the unloaded, primed shells from Brazil.

Pinfire revolvers were eclipsed by rimfires very early in the US and then bycenterfires. But they hung on for a long time in Europe--Italy among others was using them as military service revolvers until they adopted a centerfire in 1874, and civilians used them up well into the early 20th century.

The one you show appears to be well made, as much as I can see from the photos. Unfortunately MANY of the European proof houses used crown proofmarks in the 19th and early 20th century. But if I had to guess, I'd say your friend's revolver is Belgian, just because they made more revolvers of all kinds than almost anyone else.

And the lack of markings is indicative of a revolver made "for the trade," meaning not "for the rich." The really classy, expensive makers put all kinds of markings on their products, often boasting that they were "Makers to the Royal House of _____", etc.

For-the-trade guns were usually made by family shops who made guns from customer-supplied forgings or castings which family members filed and polished to make a finished gun, using a pattern gun supplied by the customer. Their customer was usually a large arms distributor who MIGHT stamp the finished products with a trade mark for sale thru sporting goods outlets or catalogs. Many are unmarked.

"Bigger than a .38 Special" covers a lot of artillery; you need to mike the barrel groove to groove distance or shove a slug of soft lead thru the bore and mike that. "Close to a .38 Special" could be a 9mm pinfire, a common civilian caliber, around .360. The next most common pinfire was what we called a ".41," which would run around .386 groove diameter or somewhat larger (+-10mm). Also a common civilian caliber. The most common military caliber was "11mm" or around .420; this probably isn't that big. Police, when they were armed with a handgun (many only had swords or batons), often carried 9mms.

I'd say you have a common European civilian pinfire pocket revolver made from 1860 to the early 1920s, but given its slow reloading system, I'd put it in the earliest part of that period. Looks almost like cap-and-ball muzzle loader system, but I DON'T think it is a conversion from cap-and-ball to pinfire. Later pinfires tended to have solid frames or be top-breaks, like the centerfires they were competing with.

Don't know about value, but if it's got family history I'd say "worth KEEPING"!

If you could get hold of an old GECO catalog (German arms distributor who had pages and pages of inexpensive no-name revolvers), you might find guns just like it.

Hope this helps a little until an "angel" comes along! One that savvies old Euro "belly guns".....

[wilit]

http://www.horstheld.com/0-Spangenberg.htm

[Mike A]

The Spangenberg/Sauer is close, but the OP's revolver has a cruder (earlier?) dismounting/reloading system, I think. Can't really tell without a view of the right side.

I assume that the U.Sauer firm is related to the later (?) J.P. Sauer and Sons that became a major arms industry player and is still involved in SIG. Anybody know?

[jgreengiant]

Pinfire Revolver Help!

Sorry to be so slow responding, have been out of town for past few days.

I have attached additional photographs of the revolver, including one of the left side.

Thanks guys for the assistance!!

[Mike A]

Looks to me like wilit nailed it; a pocket version of the 9mm he shows.