C&R exception for obtaining large capacity magazines?

[Nodda Duma]

Hi folks,

So I'm browsing through the CA Penal Code looking for the answer to one question:

Will the out of state dealer verification number apply to sending firearms to FFL 03s in CA (I think the answer is no but can't figure out why)?

When I stumbled across CA Penal Code Section 12020. 12020(a)(2) says:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=3539896017+10+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
...
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

Which we all know. However, then I read 12020(b)(5) and (7):

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:
...
(5) Any antique firearm... (the rest of (5) defines an antique firearm)
...
(7) Any firearm or ammunition that is a curio or relic as defined
in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations and
which is in the possession of a person permitted to possess the
items pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title
18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant
thereto. Any person prohibited by Section...(ie felons, bad guys, etc.)

So to me it looks like FFL03's can do all those things with high-cap mags which aren't permitted under 12020(a)(2) because of this exception. An example would be buying original GI issue 15-round mags for my M1 Carbine, or a 20-round trench magazine for a Gew 98.

Am I reading this wrong? Or is there some other regulation somewhere else that negates that exception. I'd love to get some tracer rounds...legally...for my carbine

-Jason

[ke6guj]

You might have something regarding tracer ammo, but the ammo would have to be listed C&R, and ATF stopped updating the C&R ammo list in 1968. There is no 50-year rule regarding ammo being C&R.

As for the mags, I don't think that magazine = firearm in regards to 12020b7.

[Nodda Duma]

OK. I knew I was missing something. Excuse me for a moment while I thank my brain fart.

-Jason

[hoffmang]

I spotted that a while ago and I think it may be legit. There may be a way to get some confirmation but more important things have kept me busy.

Interestingly there are both ARs and AKs on the C&R list...

-Gene

[FallingDown]

For some reason, I wasn't thinking long arms, instead, I was thinking CZ-82 would be an example.

[mymonkeyman]

Yea, I don't think it would be okay because detachable magazines aren't firearms. Now maybe it would work for a C&R with >10 round internal magazine, but how many of those are there?

[FallingDown]

MMM, another good insight on C&R's tonight. Would a fixed 20 rd SKS count in that regard? Personally, I think the 20 rd mag looks ugly on an SKS.

[ke6guj]

but a 20 rd fixed mag on an SKS would create an AW. And there are no C&R exemptions in the 12275-12290 section of the code related to AWs.

[mymonkeyman]

but a 20 rd fixed mag on an SKS would create an AW. And there are no C&R exemptions in the 12275-12290 section of the code related to AWs.

You are correct, and since a fixed 20 round SKS would have to be registered prior to the ban on large-capacity magazines, the whole thing is moot. Maybe if you had a 20 round fixed magazine C&R gun that was not a California "pistol" (16"+ barrel), or a California Rifle (rifled barrel fired from the shoulder) it would count as not an AW. So if you have a C&R shotgun or 16" long barreled BATF pistol with a 20 round fixed magazine then you might be okay, but you also are probably living in Candy Land because I don't think they exist. Also, unless the gun was originally a 20 round fixed mag gun, changing the magazine would take it out of C&R.

Edit: The firearm != detachable magazine might be something to write to the CA DOJ about in a letter. Just ask if the CA Penal Code section 12020(b)(7) permits the importation or manufacture of large-capacity magazines for Curio and Relic firearms. The worse that can happen is they say no or don't respond. If they say yes, then you could probably rely on it because the statute is somewhat ambiguous.

[hoffmang]

There are some inconsistencies in DOJ interpretations of fixed magazine bolt guns that are otherwise C&R. There may be a path to leverage those but its not yet worth pushing.

-Gene

[bohoki]

hmm that would make sense

the person selling the magazine would have to ask is this going to be used in a gi carbine or a universal?

like walmart does with the bricks of .22 rifle or pistol