Opinions on the Wideners Moisin PU Snipers

[SFSig]

http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=700|701|1400

What do you all think?

They're reproductions from 2000, so probably not too much collection value at least at the time being, but maybe one day. The fact they are "excellent" condition, Russian originals, and matching serial numbers with documentation makes them candidates... Might take a few decades though...

What about quality?

Anyone own one? I'm interested to know if they are indeed "excellent" grade and how they shoot. If they're not collectible then they better shoot. With ammo as cheap as it is, I could see these being a ton of fun...

All I have for C&R's is 2 Garands so I'm trying to catch up to you all!

Thanks for you input!

[Mad-B-Man]

They only had three. The one left was actually sold, but the order was canceled when they found out it was a repro. I think gunboards members bought the other two, so it might be worth asking there.

I don't know how they choose guns to use as a repro base in russia. If they actually test fired them, unlike the century repro, then they might be a consideration if you want an accurate shooter. Molot snipers aren't all accurate. I'm lucky to have one that is though. the other ones I got in my GB were still ok shooters still, however.

From the looks of it, that does seem to be forced matched. The receiver seems to have been scrubbed. But that's not really indicative to how well it shoots.

[Flyin Brian]

Not worth it, since you can get a real one for the same price:

http://www.classicfirearms.com/c-r-eligible/m91-30-w-scope-and-mount

The ones from classic are the same as the ones aim was selling. I bought two of those 4 months ago, both are excellent shooters.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[SFSig]

That exactly what I"m looking for... Will check out the Classic Firearms 91/30's...

Thanks!

[af240z]

THey might want to fix the caliber.... 7.62x39R..

[NOTABIKER]

is their proof that snipers were random selected in production batches or were test fired for accuracy.
every Mosin Nagant has its own story to tell. we will never know. a real sniper is just another Mosin they picked to put a scope on. nothing more or less.
i do not have a real sniper and would love to have one. i have a quality pw arms repro and a real 1943 ex sniper. that will have to do and i am happy . if you are a shooter and can get a good deal on a quality repro fine.

[NOTABIKER]

the add is very honest, i would not have a problem buying one. if you are a collector and only want the most authentic rifle you can find PASS. i love mosis snipers and own one of the repros. it looks and fires the same. they all came down the same production line.

[Marcus von W.]

Wideners rifles are the typical Ukrainian made reproductions that first appeared on the market about 6-7 years ago.

A little history lesson for those who are newer to Mosins, and Mosin snipers in particular.

The Ukrainians put these replica snipers together at the former Soviet arsenal where all the refurbed Mosins are coming from using scopes and mounts made by "Fotodevice", a firm which started producing optics during the post-WW2 Soviet period, including military scopes and optics.

The first batch of these to arrive in the U.S. was specifically produced WITH THE INTENT TO DEFRAUD at this Ukrainian facility, and were sold to InterOrdnance as original WW2 Soviet PU sniper rifles. They fooled Interordnance, they fooled Vic Thomas, and they fooled many, many people in the sniper collecting community.

They did not fool me, and they did not fool the small group of collectors who actually listen to me and pay attention to what I say (the Ukrainian fakers also follow what I say, and even slightly modified their bogus snipers a little to make them appear to be more real after I first called "bu11schitt" on them. These rifles are very good copies, but they still had distinctive features that allow one to spot them as replicas from across the room if you know what to look for. The fake WW2 Izhevsk markings on the mounts and and fake WW2 "Progress" factory markings on the scopes are what fooled most people.

However, before these rifles were made, I already had a source in the Ukraine who was supplying me with Soviet era and current production Fotodevice scopes and mounts (these were straight, honest, products with the original Fotodevice emblem and serial number on the scopes and no added fraudulent markings) so I was well acquainted with this company's products and what they looked like.

Even with the imitation WW2 markings, the machining and blued finish of the mounts was quite noticably different from both WW2 and early post-war Soviet era bases. The first batch of scopes were imitation SVT PU style, but would not actually fit in an SVT mount due to differences in the length of the reduced diameter portion of the scope tube that is held by the SVT mount's rings, which clamp down on the scope in a different location than a PU mount. The serial numbers on the scopes were wrong. The screws on the adjustment knobs and the stops for these knobs were wrong. And the Izhevsk rifles didn't have original scope serial number on the barrel shank, or evidence of its removal. And many of these rifles were the wrong year for an original PU sniper.

So I cast the bright, blinding light of truth on them, and smart people backed away from them as from a thing unclean, like a vampire from holy water and garlic soup with a cross floating in the middle. But some people were not convinced of the total falsity of these rifles and prefered to remain living in baseless denial, and the Ukrainian fakers (who were now flooding the market with them) quickly made up a b.s. story about these being actual Soviet military snipers that were assembles post-war, in the 1950's, for some secret purpose that were never issued and remained hidden in storage until miraculously discovered, mint and unissued, stored away in some long forgotten back room or bunker in the arsenal. And in response to my pointing out what was wrong with these rifles and how to instantly spot them across the room, they changed the scope tube to standard 91/30 PU style instead of SVT PU, changed the scope serial number to another bogus and incorrect style that had a Cyrillic letter prefix - but one that looks like a y or 4, not the Cyrillic A or B that Progress actually used, and started stamping the scope serial number on the barrel of the rifle. InterOrdnance, now knowing that these rifles were total fakes, none the less chose to stick with the Ukrainian seller's lies and try to pimp them off as genuine Soviet sniper rifles.."post-war" ones. Yeah, I guess you could call them "post-war" production, as 2006 is definitely way after WW2. So while IO did not originally know these were fake and were conned, fooled, and swindled by the UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT ARESNAL that put them together, when they learned the truth they took it upon themselves to try to prepetuate the Ukrainian lie that these were real. This is why you will hear truthful accusations of dishonesty and unethical conduct aimes at IO when their name is mentioned in connection with Mosin snipers.

O.k., that's old history. Now on to modern, current stuff.

Yes, it's true that InterOrdnance is the importer of the current batch of PU snipers on the market and being sold by Classic Arms, Royal Tiger (the current name of IO's sales organization) and others. However, these are indeed 100% genuine, original WW2 military production, Mosin PU snipers. Like all weapons in Soviet inventory, they continued to be used and often refurbished and rebuilt (whether they need it or not - gotta remember those Communist "make work" programs) from the end of WW2 up until the fall of the Soviet Union, and then remained in use with the national police and military forces of the independent nations like the Ukraine and Russian Federation that inherited them from their former Soviet counterparts. Some of these rifles have been heavily refurbished, some have only received a little touch up to the original shellac - this is most obvious in the RGuns rifles, which came from Ukrainian National Police inventory. Something here to remember is that the police forces of most European nations are much more paramilitary in their organization, equipment, and function than are our law enforcement agencies here in the U.S.

The ATI rifles, and now the IO ones, came from National Police inventory in the Russian
Federation, not the Ukraine like the RGuns rifles. During the period of their official use - which goes from 1942 up until a few years ago - these rifles have been refurbished to some degree or another. Some were in actual use, others ramained in storage. The Tula arsenal appearss to have had the government contract to maintain these rifles, and on at least the ATI rifles there are current Tula arsenal markings on them. To get around the Clinton era agreement by the Russians not to sell surplus military arms to the American market, the ATI (and probably the IO) rifles were sold or transferred to a firm in Germany and stored in Germany for the required length of time before they could then legally be imported into the U.S., and thus also have German markings from WafSchu (Waffen Schumacher) on them.

So where does MOLOT come in, you ask? MOLOT is a quasi-governmental weapons manufacturing, sales, and marketing organization. They have been around since the Soviet era (probably since the late 1940's in one form or another) and made various hunting, target, match, and sniper prototype weapons for the Soviet era military and civilian markets. Think of them as a combination of Springfield Armory (the real one, not the the current company that pirated the name) with the old InterOrdnance and Century Arms. Or take the example of the Chinese - Norinco, Polytech, etc. are all actually run and managed by the Red Chinese military and are part of the Peoples Liberation Army's holdings.

So the MOLOT markings on these current rifles should not be taken in any way (as some folks have) to cast doubt on their authenticity. MOLOT only handled their transfer and export from Russia, as well as sales of these and other weapons within the Russian Federation.

At around $600, these currently available Mosin PU sniper rifles are the real deal, and represent a tremendous bargain - the original sniper bolt, the scope, and the mount setups by themselves are worth way more than the price of the entire rifle. These may represent one of the last remaining major quantities of genuine PU rifles in the former Soviet Union, and when they are gone you can expect the prices to quickly go way up.

Remember, at $800 the RGuns rifles aren't overpriced (they are actually still a bargain for what you get), but at $600 the IO rifles are WAY underpriced - kind of like getting $100 bills for $60 from IO, instead of for $80 like at RGuns. Any way you look at it, a $100 bill for less than $100 is a deal.

[Marcus von W.]

is their proof that snipers were random selected in production batches or were test fired for accuracy.
every Mosin Nagant has its own story to tell. we will never know. a real sniper is just another Mosin they picked to put a scope on. nothing more or less.
i do not have a real sniper and would love to have one. i have a quality pw arms repro and a real 1943 ex sniper. that will have to do and i am happy . if you are a shooter and can get a good deal on a quality repro fine.

These replica snipers were just made from random rifles pulled out of crates by the Ukrainians who put them together. Some have spectacular bores and some have crap bores. Now some importers (like Coles)did insist on good bores and some (like Century) just took whatever the Ukrainians shipped them.

As far as real WW2 era Mosin snipers, the very early PE snipers from the early 1930's were selected from exceptionally accurate production rifles and converted into snipers. By about 1934-35 and up through WW2, they would manufacture certain production lots of rifles (within certain serial number ranges) as snipers and would put a little more care and attention into their quality and tolerances. Now with the WW2 PU rifles, as much work and effort was not put into their manufacture as with the pre-war PEM rifles. Particularly the 1942 rifles - you can take a lot of time to finely finish you sniper rifles when you are fighting Finnland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and then Poland. However, when the whole German Army is roaring down the road to Moscow and hammering any opposition they encounter along the way, quantity does take a little precedence over quality.

[NOTABIKER]

very good info, how does one go about buying one of these RETAIL. i and many of us do not have a C&R . turners and others do not sell these imports. i think retail will not work. can i go to a private gun store and have them order this rifle. thanks

[John Browning]

Great post Marcus. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I didn't know about the old batch of IO imports, great to learn something on here.

[Mad-B-Man]

I have heard of the actual fake PU snipers with faked proof and whatnot, didn't realize that it was this. I've always heard that it was century that did it.

[Marcus von W.]

A History of Century Mosin Snipers:


Back in the 1990's, Century imported a bunch of Mosin 91/30's (both Soviet and Finnish made), Finn M39's, and M91's (again, both Russian and Finn made) from Finnland.

Around the same time they also acquired a large number of refurbished Soviet PU scopes and mounts out of former Red Army inventory. These are scopes that have been removed from their rifles when the rifles were "de-snipered" and rebuilt as standard 91/30 infantry rifles, overhauled, and then put into Sovier "War Reserve Storage". Some of these scopes were in original WW2 mounts, but most were in post-war Soviet era mount setups that dated from the mid 1950's up through the late 1980's.

Anyhow, Century took these Soviet scope and mount setups and mated them to Finn Mosins, to create replica snipers. This was done here, at Century's facility in St. Albans, Vermont.

At the same time, Century also imported a number of genuine, post-war refurbished, PU snipers from the former Soviet Union - probably Russia (Clinton had not screwed us out of military surplus arms from Russia yet), as the massive imports of Mosins from the Ukraine had not yet happened. So at the same time in the 1990's, Century offered for sale both genuine WW2 Soviet PU snipers (post-war Soviet refurbished, of course) and replica snipers built up on the Finnish rifles.

Many people mistook the Finn rifle based replicas for originals, and many more dishonest people knowingly and fraudulently passed the Finn rifles off as original.

Century was also importing Mosins from Romania at this time - most had been refurbed in the Soviet Union in the 1950's and then sent to Romania where they were issued and used - and they built up a very few replica snipers using these rifles before they ran out of their few remaining Soviet scope and mount setups. These will also have the St. Albans Vt. address on the barrel like the Finn rifles and the real snipers, but they will have no Finn [SA] markings, will include later rifles like 1943 and 1944 (most of the Finn captured Mosins are pre 1942) and will have post-war Soviet refurb marks and refurb stocks.

To confuse matters more, included with the rifles Century imported from Finnland were a few genuine original, Finn captured, Soviet PE, PEM, and PU sniper rifles. All of these were missing their scopes and mounts, a few still had the original bases attached and/or had their original sniper bolts. And there were also a very few, ultra rare, genuine original Finn PU rifles built up on M91 rifles, M39 rifles, or Finn made 91/30's.

Around late 2000-early 2001, Century also located and imported a small quantity of genuine PU sniper rifles from Albania. These rifles have an interesting history - they were originally used by Soviet forces in WW2, and were supplied to the Soviet's Polish Communist puppet "Polish Red Army" late in WW2 and immediately after the War. Since they left Soviet possession before the great Soviet post-war "repair, refurb, and update" programs of the later 1940's and on through the late 1980's, they are all still pretty much in original WW2 condition and configuration - except as updated by the Poles (some have rare and desirable Polish beech stocks and/or handguards) or have replaced parts that were crudely electropenciled to match by the Albanians, who got these rifles from Poland after the Poles upgraded to the Dragunov and sold off their Mosin sniper. The key identifying feature to these Polish/Albanian issued rifles is that the original scope serial number on the barrel has been cancelled out by an asterisk-like * marking stamped over each letter and number in the scope serial number. These rifles were missing their scopes and mounts, but still had their original bases attached. Condition on them ranges from pristine, near-mint all original rifles to real beaters. Just before these were imported Century moved their operations from St. Albans, Vermont to Georgia, Vermont, so these still have the desirable, small and discrete, early Century import marking on the bottom of the front of the barrel instead of a big ugly billboard stamped on the receiver. Due to the asterisk marking used to deface the original scope serial number (it is still debated whether this was done here by Century or in Europe, most likely by the Albanians but maybe by the Poles), these rifles are known to sniper collectors as the "asterisked snipers".

In the mid-2000's, Samco Global Arms discovered a treasure trove of genuine, WW2 Yugoslavian issue, Soviet Mosin PU rifles in one of the former Yugoslav republics - most likely Croatia. These were all still in original condition (either original WW2 or post-war Yugo lightly refurbed) and original sniper configuration, but were missing their scopes and mounts, which had been removed before the rifles were put into storage by the Yugoslavs. Many of the scopes were used on the Yugo Mauser M48/52 sniper. These are the famous "Samco scopeless snipers" you hear collectors talk about.

Shortly after Samco imported their Yugo issue Mosin PU rifles, Century located a small quantity of similar Yugo issue PU snipers, probably in Bosnia or Serbia. The Century rifles are generally in much rougher condition than the Samco rifles, but like the Samco rifles are correct original PU snipers that are just missing the scopes and mount setups.
These rifles will have the big, rough, ugly Century "billboard" marking on the receiver. But because they - and the Samco rifles - left the Soviet Union before the Soviet postwar refurb programs (most of these rifles were delivered in January 1944 and a few in various military arms aid shipments up to early 1947) they will not have any post-war Soviet refurb markings or post-war stocks, and the original scope serial numbers on the barrels are all intact.

Finally we come to the above mentioned Ukrainian-made reproduction/fake PU snipers of the that were imported by Century 6-7 years ago. These were done in the Ukraine, not here by Century. They can be identified as stated above, by their replica scopes and mounts, by the big bilboard import mark on the receiver, and because they are unissued Soviet refurbed rifles.

Be aware also that during the period from the mid 1990's to today, many fake/replica Mosin sniper have also been created here by various individuals...some of these can be very convincing.

Also, many people have taken the de-snipered "ex"-snipers, that the Soviets created out of former PE, PEM, and PU snipers during their post-war refurb programs, and restored them back to their original and most historically significant WW2 combat sniper configuration. Some of these are very well done using all original parts, and for the rarer sniper variations and models, these represent the only available and affordable way for a collector to add one of these to his collection. With the current give-away prices on genuine PU snipers, restoring a more common ex-sniper like a 1943 Izhevsk doesn't make a lot of economic sense, unless you already have the scope and mount setup, have the skills to do it correctly, and like a project and the pride of ownership that comes with restoring a historic object like this.

[Marcus von W.]

A little more on the early IO fake/replica snipers:

Besides screwing IO with their fake PU rifles, the Ukrainians also assembled a number of fake PE top-mount snipers using newly made mounts and newly made PE scopes (with correct copies of original markings, dates, and serial numbers) that they also sold to Century as original. These fake PE rifles cost more to make (and hence cost more to the retail buyer) than the fake PU rifles, and obviously did not sell as many. While the fake PU rifles are still being made, the fake PE rifles haven't been manufactured for a few years that I know of. Again, if you know what a real PE sniper looks like, you can instantly spot one of the fakes.


There are modern scopes that look like a Soviet PE scope (but are totally different internally) and replica PEM side-mounts being made in the Ukraine, and replica PEM scopes and siderail mounts coming out of China, but so far no imports of fake PEM siderail snipers, or ones put together here, have showed up so far.

[Donkeypunch0420]

Marcus,

I have one from the ATI batch. Can you tell me where those fall into place? Same as RGuns, I.O., or a totally different animal altogether?

EDIT: Sorry for thread jacking. After reading all of Marcus' posts, I forgot what the OP was about.