Electronic Bound Book?

[Burbur]

Just wanted to see if anyone out there is using MyGunDB as a bound book replacement and wanted to get second opinions if it qualifies as a bound book replacement.

The developer states this was his intention, and it looks sufficient to me, but wanted to get some expert opinions. if you are interested, it is free to use up to 10 guns, with all functionality. That's how I got hooked, since then it has been another e-Addiction...

The developer keeps a thread with updates here on Calguns
and maintains his own forums for tech and suggestions under his website

[CaliB&R]

From my understand of what the ATF has said, your better off just using paper. You have to write to and get permission from the ATF to use an electronic bound book. And it has to have certain features to make it acceptable, one of which is all changes to any data entered is recorded by the software. It only takes a minute to write down info in my book, but I keep an electronic copy on my computer.

[EricClay]

The ATF defines a bound book as the following:

A bound book is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]

[Getting your C&R license]

Eric

[Wolfrage]

Actually, the ATF no longer requires you to have permission to use a digital bound book as long as the program meets specific requirements (which MGDB does), nor does the ATF define a bound book that way anymore.

Hooray, the ATF has moved into the 2000's!

Sorry to jump in but i'm the author of MyGunDB and just wanted to clear up some confusion.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2008-2.pdf

Page 3 starts the good stuff. MyGunDB meets their requirements and you do not need a waiver to use it as your sole bound book ever. The ATF understands that requiring a hardcopy bound book is silly in this day and age. Digital versions can be a thousand times more useful, safer and more secure. Encrypted databases with backups beats paper any day of the week for long term record keeping

I started writing MGDB because once I understood the ATF ruling, it made no sense to me, a computer geek, to use a hardcopy bound book. And since there are no programs for the average person that meet their requirements, as opposed to $500+ programs for big FFLs, I decided I'd do it (plus my handwriting sucks).

The app has grown to be more than just a digital bound book though, based on user feedback over the last bunch of months. Even the CMP maybe be rebranding it to offer to its members -- if you've seen my posts on other forums, you'll know I'm about the community and love user feedback (the app is 90% based on user feedback) and not just trying to be a businessman.

[Chris J]

Does this application require an Internet connection to run? Does it send any data anywhere during normal use?

Pardon my paranoia.

[Wolfrage]

Does this application require an Internet connection to run? Does it send any data anywhere during normal use?

Pardon my paranoia.

The only time an internet connection is needed is to register the app. Once that is done, it does not.

As for data, it does send analytics (a count, just like google analytics) where I can count installs (because when using the installer badge, there isn't an easy way to track downloads or installs) and counts how many times an error function is triggered, things like that. The analytics stuff uses http://www.appanalyticshq.com/ so you can sign up for free and see that all it can do is count, not use any data from the DB itself at all and isn't identifiable at all. Now that the app is out of beta I will be adding an option to enable that and have it off by default and let users enable it to aid me in debugging. But in no case does the app ever send a single bit of data from the database itself.

The other connections it makes online are to adobe's site to check for Flash Player or AIR updates and to a version file on my site (http://myifsgundb.com/ifs/update.xml) to see if a new version is out, if you have it check for updates.

Again though, once registered no internet connection is required.

[Chris J]

OK. You actually say something to that effect on the Web page, if I had looked there before asking the question. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'll read some more and then maybe PM you later. Application looks pretty good at first glance.

[Wolfrage]

OK. You actually say something to that effect on the Web page, if I had looked there before asking the question. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'll read some more and then maybe PM you later. Application looks pretty good at first glance.

Sure, pm me any time!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk and Red Bulls

[nmCollector]

ATF Definition of Bound Book?

Actually, the ATF no longer requires you to have permission to use a digital bound book as long as the program meets specific requirements (which MGDB does), nor does the ATF define a bound book that way anymore.

Hooray, the ATF has moved into the 2000's!

...

Excuse me. Where does ATF redefine the defintion of a Bound Book? Somehow I missed that change. This is VERY IMPORTANT to me as many people I know still use "an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages" for their bound books. I am not saying BATFE did not change the defintion but I did miss that change. Can you please provide a reference for your claim to that effect?

As background, years ago, before the BATFE changed their requirements for electronic record keeping systems, many individual C&R holders obtained ATF (yes, back then it was known as ATF) approval to use my old NM Gun Collection Software as an alternate record. When BATFE changed the requirements I posted the changes to my web site ( ATF Alternate Record Notes ) and I refused to comply with these new regulations because ATF now requires that an electronicic record keeping system track every change made by the user. As an individual C&R holder I figured it was better not to use an electronic system for my official C&R bound book than to have my every correction logged and traceable.

Here is the relevant section of the new regulations (excerpted from ATF Rul. 2008-2 which you site in your post):

"All data entered into the computer system must be recorded into the database and cannot be capable of being edited or modified at a later date without generating an audit trail. The software system must retain any correction of errors as an entirely new entry, without deleting or modifying the original entry. The system may allow for entries in a notes column to explain any correction."

Thank you very much for your help clarifying this.

sincerely,

Clay Pryor
developer of NM Collector Software

[Wolfrage]

A digital alternate method of recording the info can be used without permission if it meets their requirements. That means its part of the definition. I dont recall the atf defining it as a looseleaf book at all since composition books were accepted, for example.

I specifically made sure i do log all changes in bound book data so it is the only system i needed. Writing in a separate book seemed silly, doing it twice.

And as with your app, users can always print their sheets for a looseleaf book.

Sent using Red Bulls and my phone, please excuse any typos.

[Wolfrage]

Ive never had a.looseleaf bound book, come to think of it.

[nmCollector]

ordered list of loose-leaf pages as Bound Book

I dont recall the atf defining it as a looseleaf book at all since composition books were accepted, for example.

You said the definition of a bound book had changed after another forum member said an ordered list of loose-leaf pages was acceptable. That is what I was questioning.

From: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/lice...tml#bound-bookwww.empnavy.us).

Clay
nmCollector.net LLC

[TRICKSTER]

MyGunDB is a great program, but I would not use any computer based program as my official Bound Book. It's great for your own records, but by using a computer program as your official bound book, you are now involving your computer in any ATF audit. I find it interesting that many people here would voluntarily place themselves in that situation.

[nmCollector]

Free ATF Compliant Gun Collecting Software Package

Found this one as well: Gun Collection Database | SourceForge.net.

I am not associated with this nor have I tried it but it does look like a worthy project. It appears to be much harder to install than other software packages but the author is attempting to keep it up to date with the latest ATF Software Requirements and it is free and the author claims it always will be free.

Clay

BTW, I still do not understand why anyone would want their every edit tracked when they can just print out ATF compliant reports as their bound book. For that matter, if it is just ATF compliance you are after, paper and pen are probably the safest.

[Wolfrage]

Because most of us have no desire to keep printouts. Plus your suggestion would require printing out the entries every time you made a change. If you didn't, you would not be in compliance until you did.

Think of the trees, Clay!