I have a question need your input/M1

[Clancy]

Gentlemen,
What and why do you think Ordnance went with the en-block 8 rd Clip and did not go with a 20 det. mag on the M1 Garand. I have an idea about it, no Ordnance file on it, but just want to see what you think was the reason for it. Let's see how many ideas are out there about this. Gentlemen the floor is open for your input........

Could use some help Check out my sites. TIA
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Clancy

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[bobfried]

I've given it alot of thoughts over the years and will go with the age old reason of magazine deficiency.

Moving from the 19th to the 20th century the majority of "soldiers" were of peasant and uneducated stock, the few professional soldier that did exist were largely mercenaries. Moving onto WWI the situation was not changed very much, still largely an uneducated force. Coupled with trench warfare and attrition, the importance of an individual rifleman seemed less and less important as was his firepower. The German especially took to this as their basic squad comprised of bolt action K98k supported by medium and heavy MGs. The Russian and Great Britian also prescribed to this mindset. The British went as far as relying on infalade use of MG (Vickers) to support infantry movement. Indirect fire became more important than the individual firepower of each rifleman. That of course begun to change as the war progressed but it was the mindset of the planners during WWII.

When the M1 Garand was introduced I personally believe that the planners still did not entrust a great deal of faith on the individual infantryman. That and the general abhorrance of magazines compounded the effect to favor the en-bloc clip. A Magazine fed Semi-auto was still largely a new and unproven concepts and I would hope it influenced the decision to use clips in the Garand. I would also think that the use of stripper clips and clips such as those of the M95 have proven themselves over the course of decades.

As a progressive in that era I would also like to believe that some of them must have saw the concept of combined arms come into fruition and realized the tradeoffs between an unproven magazine and a limited capacity clip. The ergonomics of the rifle could have been a major factor since many still believed in the gracefull lines of a magazine-less outline.

But with all that I still believe it came down to magazines. The US was simply not ready nor able to produced a decent magazine for the platform. I love the M1A but am glad I have a hoard of USGI magazines as those that have M1A's know the general finicky nature of the design on magazines. If I were a planner the unproven status and general difficulty of magazines would steer me straight into en-bloc clips.

[dfletcher]

Well, I'll get the ball rolling with a bit of a guess.

On the face of it, choosing a rifle with fewer available shots and the added cost of the Garand's feed system without the detachable mag makes little sense, until you consider the 1903 and its magazine cutoff switch. I think switching from a bolt rifle (the '03 & 17) to a semi auto caused concern that soldiers would waste ammo - why encourage that with a 10 or 20 round detachable magazine? I think the military had all the change it was comfortable with going from a 5 round bolt to an 8 round semi auto rifle.

[Alan Block]

Additionaly the en-bloc clips fit nicely into the already issued cartrige belts. You know how the army likes to recycle things.

[chiefcrash]

i've heard two rumors why the Garand uses en bloc clips:

(1) the Army wanted a fixed magazine flush with the stock so they wouldn't have to modify the Manual of Arms (close order drill with rifle) too much

(2) a detachable magazine was too expensive, and soldiers would constantly loose them after swapping mags. En bloc clips are cheap and disposable

[mousegun]

M1 with the clip-fed internal magazine could be reloaded from a fox hole or berm without breaking position or pulling the rifle off a sandbag notch a la stripper clip bolt gun technique. I suspect command hadn't yet gotten over trench warfare thinking.

[Pthfndr]

(1) the Army wanted a fixed magazine flush with the stock so they wouldn't have to modify the Manual of Arms (close order drill with rifle) too much

Knowing the Army, this makes a lot of sense. Another reason for 8 rounds is that is all that would fit inside the stock's magwell.

[ImOverHere]

Many of the above ideas sound reasonable to me. But one I've not seen mentioned (excuse me if I missed it) is what I understand was a common perception among military brass through at least the 1950s. That is, the military brass regarded the rifleman as largely engaging their enemy at longer distances with carefully aimed and placed fire than what was subsequently determined to be the case in post-WWII studies. IOW, what would the "average" rifleman need with multiple heavier-to-carry magazines of 20+ rounds of .30-06 since their enemy was so far away? There'd be plenty of time to reload and relatively little need for a high volume of fire.

I would guess they may have also believed that If utilized in a selective-firing and/or auto-loading capacity, it would have proved both economically costly and wasteful of ammunition (and therefore potential supply problems?). A HC magazine would only contribute to both problems.

[RaceDay]

I was thinking what ImOverHere said-- 8-shot semi-auto being plenty of firepower for soldiers engaging an enemy at a distance. Other guns like a carbine or Thompson could be used with larger magazines for the in close fighting.

[ImOverHere]

I was thinking what ImOverHere said-- 8-shot semi-auto being plenty of firepower for soldiers engaging an enemy at a distance. Other guns like a carbine or Thompson could be used with larger magazines for the in close fighting.

That's what I was thinking. IIRC from my reading, most rifle squads were sent out with at least one guy wielding a BAR, a select-firing .30-06, so that aspect was covered, so to speak.

[Spiggy]

I would have to say the brass sat down with a dartboard

Why 8? 10 is a much more even rounded number; that's why there's a whole measurement system based on it.

[Scarecrow Repair]

Why 8? 10 is a much more even rounded number; that's why there's a whole measurement system based on it.

I don't have an M1, but I bet it is more likely to be based on how many rounds could be loaded into the internal magazine, or, if clips already existed for other purposes, they simply reused them for the M1.

[mousegun]

I would have to say the brass sat down with a dartboard

Why 8? 10 is a much more even rounded number; that's why there's a whole measurement system based on it.

I read where the original Garand design submittal was for a .276 caliber round in 10 round clips. The upper command echelon decided to utilize the millions of rounds of .30-06 ammunition still in storage after the War to End All Wars in the new rifle, and the eight round magazine was a consequence of the first design approach.

..or so it seems here.

[Clancy]

Gentlemen,
There was a lot of data about the magazine, getting into the prone position having the Magazine getting in the way of the shooter. Remember, that the BAR was used in WW1 and thus it was a combat tested weapon. My problem with the BAR or any other full auto is the amount of ammo to keep feeding it. IIRC there were 3 man teams to keep the BAR up and running. I WONDER what would happen if all the guys were issued a BAR type weapon. Half of it troops would be getting the ammo to those on the line. Mr. Garand was ahead of Ordnance because he had all ready built a semi auto in 1920 with a rifle with the 20 rd. magazine and yes Ordnance did not want that type of firearm. Yes it had problems but with the team at SA those guys could have built as the 1920 one. But it would still have taken one or two riflemen off the line to keep ammo to feeding it. This is just my .02 cent. Talking with some WW2 Vet's. Some of them used 2 BAR"S on the left of their line making it sound like a .30 Cal., Machine Gun and a 3 man team with the M1 Garand on their right. They could make the Garands sound like a couple of BAR's firing Nice Trick!!

LOOK AT THE WEIGHT SOMEBODY MISSED THAT UP !!!



Could use some help Check out my sites. TIA
Thanks again
Clancy

NRA Life Endowment
NRA Training Counselor to make NRA Instructor's
NRA Instructor in Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Fire Arm and Personal Protection
USNI
Stone Soda Can Hammer
THA 63
FSS 90% / BW X Speed Div by 1000 = PF
Stone Soda Can Hammer
THA 63

[M. Sage]

.30-06 is heavy stuff. Dunno if I'd want to carry enough to feed a semi-auto (or select fire!) that took 20-round mags...