help with stock refinishing

[jr916]

Hey everyone, I want to refinish my Mosin Nagant 91/30 stock. It's a 1933 Izzy hex so I think it's a hardwood stock, but I'm not positive it isn't laminated. How do I get a picture up here to clarify if it is?

What should I use to strip the old finish? Would I need a different chemical to strip the laminate compared to the normal finish (is it always shellac?)?

I want it to look like the rifle on this page http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/mos...n-shooter.html

(the one posted by "Anton") I like that soft, matte wood look. Should I use linseed oil or Tung oil or something else to get that natural wood look?

Thanks

[TRICKSTER]

The one posted looks like hardwood. Think plywood when you wonder if a stock is laminated. The wood is layered in sheets. Pop of the butt plate and if you see solid wood, it's hardwood. If you see layers of wood, it's laminated.
Shellac is the same on hardwood or laminate. If you insist on taking that off, refinish the stock with Boiled Linseed Oil. It dries much faster than Tung Oil.
Top that off with a few coats of Toms 1/3 Mix and it will have a nice satin finish.

[Milsurp Collector]

If you want to remove the original shellac finish, either acetone or denatured alcohol will remove it. If you want to use an oil finish, you can use boiled linseed oil (BLO), raw linseed oil (flaxseed oil), or 100% pure tung oil, which is what "Anton" used on that other forum. BLO is available at any hardware store, Home Depot, etc. Be aware that "tung oil finish" sold at your hardware store is not the same thing as 100% pure tung oil, and it will not give the same results.

Sources of 100% pure tung oil

http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=6524&filter=tung%20oil

http://www.woodcraft.com/Catalog/ProductPage.aspx?prodid=430

http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-Tung-Oil-Quart/dp/B001DSZXAK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267976933&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Cutting-Boards-Sushi-Plates/dp/B001KS75C2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1267976933&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Behlen-H3987-Tung-Oil-pt/dp/B0000DD61W/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267976933&sr=8-4

http://www.amazon.com/100-Pure-Tung-Oil-90008/dp/B000GYEGQE/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267976933&sr=8-14

http://www.amazon.com/100-Pure-Tung-Oil-90004/dp/B000GYCCZG/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267976933&sr=8-5

http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Blend-TUNG-OIL-32oz/dp/B001E0BLJE/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1267976933&sr=8-7

Sources of raw linseed oil.

http://www.walgreens.com/store/catalog/Herbals/Organic-Flax-Oil/ID=prod393843&navCount=5&navAction=push-product

http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Flax-Seed-24-Ounces/dp/B0013OUOQW

http://www.meijer.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=133962&cmpid=goobase&CAWELAID=362650507

[jr916]

I bought some mineral spirits and 0000 steel wool, will this be sufficient to strip off the shellac finish? I want to use an oil to refinish, I like the matte soft wood look. Will BLO give similar results to the tung oil "Anton" used? I can get BLO easily. Also, do I have to start using the BLO immediately after stripping the old finish off? I.e., can I start to strip the old shellac now and then go get the BLO and do it maybe this weekend or early next week, or should I not leave the unfinished stock bare for a week?

When applying the mineral spirits, should I use a rag first and progress to the 0000 steel wool if it isn't coming off? And when I apply the BLO, what is the proper application technique (cloth, steel wool, etc?)?

Thanks,
JR

[Milsurp Collector]

I bought some mineral spirits and 0000 steel wool, will this be sufficient to strip off the shellac finish? I want to use an oil to refinish, I like the matte soft wood look. Will BLO give similar results to the tung oil "Anton" used? I can get BLO easily. Also, do I have to start using the BLO immediately after stripping the old finish off? I.e., can I start to strip the old shellac now and then go get the BLO and do it maybe this weekend or early next week, or should I not leave the unfinished stock bare for a week?

When applying the mineral spirits, should I use a rag first and progress to the 0000 steel wool if it isn't coming off? And when I apply the BLO, what is the proper application technique (cloth, steel wool, etc?)?

Thanks,
JR

Mineral spirits will not remove shellac. Acetone or denatured alcohol will.

I recommend bronze wool instead of steel wool for stocks. Steel wool can shed and embed fibers into the wood that then turn black when they corrode, leaving you with black spots in the wood. It happened to this guy http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5025

BLO tends to darken with age more than 100% pure tung oil. 100% pure tung oil provides better moisture protection than linseed oil. I use both 100% pure tung oil and raw linseed oil (flaxseed oil) for oil finishes, but not BLO, depending on what I'm trying to do. Nothing wrong with BLO, but I have found that raw linseed oil is thinner and easier to apply than BLO and it oxidizes faster and redder than BLO, at the expense of longer drying time.

You can leave the stock bare. As long as it is indoors and it is not exposed to moisture or extremes of temperatures or humidity there is no rush to apply a finish. In fact, rushing to do something quickly instead of doing it right with the proper materials and methods is a bigger risk to your stock.

If you soak paper towels with acetone or denatured alcohol (work outdoors) the shellac will soften and rub right off. Then use bronze wool if necessary.

If you are going to use BLO, I recommend putting some in a small container and thinning it with your mineral spirits or turpentine. Same thing with 100% pure tung oil. Raw linseed oil is thin enough to use as is. I apply oil finishes by dipping my fingers in the oil and applying it (literally) by hand. If you use rags with BLO or raw linseed oil, dispose of them in a water-filled bucket. Wadded up linseed oil rags in a pile can ignite from spontaneous combustion. Using your bare hands avoids that problem, and you have better control of how much oil you apply and where it goes.

Again, getting good results comes with taking your time and using the best materials, not just what is easiest and quickest to get.

While you can do whatever you want with your stock, before you remove the original and correct shellac finish read about what a good finish it is http://milsurpshooter.net/topic/1658...r-Friends.html

[jr916]

That site even admits shellac is not effective at keeping out water, which is my greatest concern living 50 yards from the ocean and having salty moisture in the air at all times.

The main reason I'm doing this is because my shellac finish has quite a few chips in it, and I also want a finish that isn't glossy/shiny at all.

I REALLY do not want to mess up or buff out any of the arsenal marks in the wood, as I have way more marks than normal all over and I love that aspect of my stock. Will using denatured alcohol to strip the shellac and rubbing in an oil with 0000 wool affect my arsenal marks? ...I can't find bronze wool, home depot doesnt carry it but I'll check other hardware stores. Is steel wool really bad to use? I'm using very fine 0000 so I wouldn't think little shards would embed in the wood, or any mark might be negligible.

PS- Does BLO darken to brown, or reddish, when it ages (and will diluting it with mineral spirits lessen the darkening)? I really don't like reddish finishes. Can I easily strip off tung oil, BLO, etc and re-apply a different finish if I don't like the results? Or does oil soak in and remain for good?

PPS- I'm picking up some denatured alcohol right now, but keeping the mineral spirits to dilute the BLO or tung oil I get. Should I go over the stock with mineral spirits after stripping the shellac with denatured alcohol, to get out any remaining cosmoline soaked in the wood?

[Milsurp Collector]

That site even admits shellac is not effective at keeping out water, which is my greatest concern living 50 yards from the ocean and having salty moisture in the air at all times.

The main reason I'm doing this is because my shellac finish has quite a few chips in it, and I also want a finish that isn't glossy/shiny at all.

That's fine. Just so you know, if the chips are a problem shellac is easy to repair. Newly applied shellac will blend in and fuse with the old shellac. I would be more worried about the metal corroding from the salt air than the wood being damaged. Also, linseed oil provides very poor protection from moisture, probably worse than shellac.

Of all the oil finishes on the market, linseed oil is the weakest and least resistant oil finish, period. In any test, it will allow water to pass through it into the surface below quicker than any other finish out there. In fact, this is considered an asset when linseed oil was used as a base for old, enamel house paints. The linseed oil was so porous that it allowed any water to escape that accumulated below the paint surface on the clapboards or shakes of your house. This kept the paint from lifting.

http://milsurpshooter.net/topic/16736/t/BLO-amp-Tung-Oil-Finish-How-to-use-CA-Cosmo-Penetrat.html

As far as the gloss and shine,

Now, shellac is a shiny finish. Old rifle stocks are never shiny so there is a method to impart some instant patina to a newly finished stock. Simply take some 0000 steel wool and dip it into an oil like Tung Oil or Boiled Linseed Oil and rub out the entire surface. This will burnish the surface nicely and knock down the shine. Wipe immediately after buffing it out. If there are any remaining shiny spots, go at them again locally until the entire stock is done.

I REALLY do not want to mess up or buff out any of the arsenal marks in the wood, as I have way more marks than normal all over and I love that aspect of my stock. Will using denatured alcohol to strip the shellac and rubbing in an oil with 0000 wool affect my arsenal marks?

No.

...I can't find bronze wool, home depot doesnt carry it but I'll check other hardware stores.

That's why I provided a link in my earlier post. bronze wool

Is steel wool really bad to use? I'm using very fine 0000 so I wouldn't think little shards would embed in the wood, or any mark might be negligible.

Why take a chance when something better is available? If it happens, it's very hard to fix. Read the thread I linked to from the CMP forum, it was noticeable.

PS- Does BLO darken to brown, or reddish, when it ages? I really don't like reddish finishes. Can I easily strip off tung oil, BLO, etc and re-apply a different finish if I don't like the results? Or does oil soak in and remain for good?

Linseed oil, raw or "boiled", reddens and darkens with age. With walnut USGI stocks it is a desirable trait. 100% pure tung darkens/oranges somewhat but much less than linseed oil.

Oil finishes can be removed with lacquer thinner. Shellac can be applied over an oil finish.

[jr916]

Will a 50/50 BLO/mineral spirits mix darken less as well as dry faster than plain BLO? I'm gonna remove the shellac with denatured alcohol tonight. Should I wipe the wood down with mineral spirits (or I've heard of ppl using GOJO--citrus pumice hand cleaner) after the denatured alcohol to get out more dirt/gunk/cosmo that may have been under the shellac?

Honestly, this is a $99 rifle and I'm mostly doing this for fun as a project to keep busy and try my hand at something new. If my 50/50 BLO/spirits mix doesn't give me what I want, I can always remove it with lacquer thinner and try something else like tung oil, right?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Not sure what you are trying to mimic there, his does not look so hot. Before you go refinishing it, might I suggest just 'touching up' your stock with some shellac and stain? What does it look like anyways?

[ColdDeadHands1]

Check out my stock refinishing thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=296275

[jr916]

Also, there's a few metal pieces on my stock I'm not sure how to remove, or if it's necessary to remove them. They are: the metal slots for sling straps, the two "button" things for the handguard bands, and the two metal balls (one looks removable by two little holes) in the dead center of the stock right in back of the groove. Do I have to, or can I, remove these before stripping the shellac with denatured alcohol and rubbing in BLO/spirits?

[jr916]

Not sure what you are trying to mimic there, his does not look so hot. Before you go refinishing it, might I suggest just 'touching up' your stock with some shellac and stain? What does it look like anyways?

Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I like his stock because it looks natural. Although the finished Garand in the link from ColdDeadHands post looks nice, I think the "dry" look of the stock before he changed it looks better. Maybe not on a garand, but that's what I want on my Mosin... and I can always change it later.

Right now, the shellac is chipping in several areas and theres dirt/crud in a few spots, so I want to strip off the shellac (which I find too shiny for my taste), clean the wood well, then rub in some BLO to oil it up and get a solid, but not dark and shiny finish. I may experiment with shellac on top of this for protection, if I see evidence that I can effectively buff out the shine/gloss of the shellac.

Until I've gotten more feedback/opinions, I'm just gonna clean it up with mineral spirits and see what I wanna do after that.

[jr916]

...so I stripped the shellac with denatured alcohol and a rag, then very lightly smoothed the wood with 0000 steel wool. Then I mixed a 50/50 blend of BLO and mineral spirits and smothered the stock/handguard in it, let it sit for 30min, then wiped off the excess and let sit for a day. Today I applied the second "coat" of my BLO/spirits mix with my bare hands (rubbing til I felt heat from the friction to work in the oil), then applied more, let it sit 30min, and rubbed it down well a second time before wiping the excess off. Now I'm waiting ~24hrs for it to dry before doing another coat, and the wood is already looking very nice.

Two questions:

-should I use a 75%/25% mix of BLO/spirits for my third coat and then move on to 100% BLO for subsequent applications? Is there any reason not to just use my 50/50 mix for every application? (I'm afraid pure BLO will gum up too much).

-I've heard of people wet sanding with like a 400 grit sandpaper while applying BLO, then leaving the wet BLO/sawdust gunk on the stock for awhile (30min-hour) before wiping off the excess. Apparently this helps bring out the grain/contrast in the wood. Is this a valid technique, has anyone experimented with it, and does anyone think I should give it a try?

Thanks for all the help! This project is turning out to be a lot of fun, today I was sitting in my room watching a documentary for class while massaging oil into my rifle stock for about two hours... my roommates think I'm nuts haha.

[OpenSightsOnly]

...so I stripped the shellac with denatured alcohol and a rag, then very lightly smoothed the wood with 0000 steel wool. Then I mixed a 50/50 blend of BLO and mineral spirits and smothered the stock/handguard in it, let it sit for 30min, then wiped off the excess and let sit for a day. Today I applied the second "coat" of my BLO/spirits mix with my bare hands (rubbing til I felt heat from the friction to work in the oil), then applied more, let it sit 30min, and rubbed it down well a second time before wiping the excess off. Now I'm waiting ~24hrs for it to dry before doing another coat, and the wood is already looking very nice.

Two questions:

-should I use a 75%/25% mix of BLO/spirits for my third coat and then move on to 100% BLO for subsequent applications? Is there any reason not to just use my 50/50 mix for every application? (I'm afraid pure BLO will gum up too much).

-I've heard of people wet sanding with like a 400 grit sandpaper while applying BLO, then leaving the wet BLO/sawdust gunk on the stock for awhile (30min-hour) before wiping off the excess. Apparently this helps bring out the grain/contrast in the wood. Is this a valid technique, has anyone experimented with it, and does anyone think I should give it a try?

Thanks for all the help! This project is turning out to be a lot of fun, today I was sitting in my room watching a documentary for class while massaging oil into my rifle stock for about two hours... my roommates think I'm nuts haha.

I use plain BLO to re-oil the stocks.

I have learned that if the stock gets kinda-gummy then that means that I used too much oil.

You have to use a little bit at a time and hand rub the BLO into the stock, and it won't get gummy.

A while back, I cleaned the shellac off a spare stock that I have using DA and a rag. Worked well. Then, I moved to the DA and 0000 steel wool combo, noticed that the wood got some more scratches. Well, considering the age and condition of the stock, it really was not that noticeable but still, looking at it under a bright light, yep, I added a few more linear scratches, lol!

Glad that you are having fun with this project!