Help needed with BP "starter kit"

[Texas Boy]

I was in the gun shop Saturday spending way too much when I noticed a brass frame 1858, .44 cal Old Army (made by CVA). He made me a deal I couldn't refuse and so it went home with me (always wanted an 1858). OK, it isn't a Cimarron and I know the brass frames aren't as strong, but heck, for the price I couldn't say no. If nothing else, it was an inexpensive mantle piece - but hopefully it will be great shooting fun too!

The last time I shot black powder was probably as a Boy Scout - and in those days you could legally drink and drive, firearms were cash and carry, and a whole bunch of other fun stuff was legal too! Needless to say I'm not up to speed on black powder.

Other than powder, caps, projectiles, wad material, and a powder measure, what do I need? How do I figure safe powder loads for this gun? Cleaning supplies? Other?

Any specific recommendations on brands/models of various needed accessories would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[joelberg]

15-25 grains is a reasonable load for the 44 brass framed 1858. Once I ran out of wads I just started using Crisco as a lube instead. I'd clean the gun by disassembling it and washing it in very hot water in a 5 gallon bucket with dish soap then oil after baking it in the oven @ 200 F to dry off all of the water. Works good for me.

[Tallship]

Couple of things: 1. If you're only using 15-25 grains in an 1858, you're going to want to have something like cornmeal to put on top of the powder so that the powder is compressed when you seat the ball. 2. You probably want a nipple wrench for taking the nipples off for cleaning. 3. There is no such thing as an unsafe powder load for this gun as long as you don't use 777. However, filling the chambers to the top with powder will eventually stretch the frame, and then you will have a nice wall hanger.

[joelberg]

Couple of things: 1. If you're only using 15-25 grains in an 1858, you're going to want to have something like cornmeal to put on top of the powder so that the powder is compressed when you seat the ball. 2. You probably want a nipple wrench for taking the nipples off for cleaning. 3. There is no such thing as an unsafe powder load for this gun as long as you don't use 777. However, filling the chambers to the top with powder will eventually stretch the frame, and then you will have a nice wall hanger.

Remember it's a brass frame, so if he wants to keep shooting it for a long time he has to take it a little easier on the powder loads. Sure it will take full house stuffed to the brim loads several times, but it WILL stretch out if he does so.


And 777 is going to be more powerful grain for grain compared to the real black. I've read anywhere between 10%-20% stronger. But the 777 provides recommended loads on the jug so that is helpful.


Oh yeah, and remember black powder loads are measured VOLUMETRICALLY, NOT by weight.

[Texas Boy]

Thanks guys. I got some percussion caps, a caper, some balls, sprung for the wonder wads, and picked up an old flask and a small amount of powder from a friend who had it forever. The flask/measure dispenses about 28 grns according to my scale - so probably about right - hopefully not too hot for the brass frame.

Now if I can just find someone who sells real black powder near San Jose. My friend had enough for about 50 shots, maybe.

Also, anyone know of percussion caps are subject to hazmat fees? I paid $7 for 100 caps local - ouch! With local supplies I'm paying $0.28/shot + tax, and that is using the free powder. Guess I'm going to have to place an order to Widners/PV/etc to get reasonably priced caps, stop using the wonder wads, and find some inexpensive 44 cal balls.

[bigthaiboy]

Also, anyone know of percussion caps are subject to hazmat fees? I paid $7 for 100 caps local - ouch! With local supplies I'm paying $0.28/shot + tax, and that is using the free powder. Guess I'm going to have to place an order to Widners/PV/etc to get reasonably priced caps, stop using the wonder wads, and find some inexpensive 44 cal balls.

Percussion caps are subject to hazmat fees ($20 plus shipping). Unless you are buying a load of them plus lbs of powder, your savings are going to be lost in the hazmat fee. $6 to $7 per 100 is about the going rate for No.10 or 11 caps. 1000 caps is usually $50 to $55, so the savings aren't there, unless you buy larger quantities, by the time you add hazmat fees.

[Texas Boy]

Actually I've seen caps at $35-40 per 1000 at the typical online reloading supply places - so only slightly more than normal primers. But yes, with shipping and hazmat you need to place a large order. Problem is most places are out of other things I need these days, and 10k percussion caps would probably be more than I could ever use. Oh well.

So is there a place to get real black powder in the bay area, or am I stuck with mail order (again, probably have to order more than I want) or the powder substitutes?

[Tallship]

The flask/measure dispenses about 28 grns according to my scale - so probably about right - hopefully not too hot for the brass frame.

Black powder is measured by volume, not weight, so don't go by what the scale says. If I remember correctly, a 45acp cartridge holds about 28 grains of fff (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Find an old 45 cartridge and see if what you're measuring fills it up.

[11Z50]

Take a trip to Bass Pro Shop in Manteca....they have a good stock of BP stuff and you can pick up caps and powder without a hazmat fee. It's a fun place to shop as well. It take my girl with me and she buys clothes there. (win/win ) They don't stock real BP tho.... Try the pyrodex pellets. Very convenient in my ROA. I was using crisco, but found it to be a bit messy, especially when it gets warm. I recommend Ox-Yoke over-powder wads. Much easier to work with.

[scrat]

Um dont believe everything that is written or what other people have written. This could be dangerous. here is why. an 1858 is designed to shoot loads usually above 30 grains. With this in mind. here is what to do. put your gun in half cock. turn the cylinder then use the loading lever and measure how far the loading lever goes into the cylinder. Now here is where you would have a problem. if you were to pour in 15 grains into the cylinder then use the loading lever to push in the ball. it will push in the ball as far as it will go but the ball will not meet the powder. With smokeless powder this is not a problem. with black powder you just made an explosive charge that will be very dangerous. so two things to consider if your loading lever will not allow you to load 15 -20 grains then you will have to get a loading stand to allow you to load the cylinder out of the gun to press in the ball to meet the powder or do other methods of loading. one being building up the load. meaning pour in 15-20 grains then use a wad then fill with another 10-15 grains of COW cream of wheat. then put the ball in and press.

[scrat]

i would advise for people not to reply to this post if you do not know about black powder.

Now CVA did not make black powder revolvers they imported them from several companies. one being ASM an important thing to do is slug the barrel and slug the cylinder. Why. because you need to know what size ball to use. most 1858 use a .457. However your brass may be pretty old as CVA has not sold any revolvers in a long time. i would say try .454 for starters. When you go to press in the round ball you are looking to see if pressing in the round ball makes a big cut round ring of lead. if it does than your ok. if not than you will have to go larger to a .457. now here is the typical loading.

if you get a powder flask most come with a sized spout. i use a 24 grain spout on mine. however most shooters myself as well just pour the powder in the cylinders to where they know to stop. on my brass frames i use a spout or powder measure.

so go buy yourself a powder flask. it will have a spout with a number on it. lets say its 20 grains. Well put your finger on the hole then turn the lever and shake it upside down and close the lever. you now have the spout filled up with the 20 grains and can pour into the cylinder. next take 6 wads and push them down then i would recomend using cow. you could make up a dipper yourself. take some shells 9mm 40mm and such and fill them up. then see which one fills the cylinder. typicaly if you go full cylinder you go about 3/8 below the top of the cylinder this will allow you to press in the ball and compact the load. then i use bore butter with a qtip to coat the top of each of the balls. As for the caps you may want to buy some new nipples especially if you bought a used gun. Dixie gun works or dear creek products.. most ranges that allow bp and sell supplies will have caps. either #10 or 11 which ever fits better. problem your going to have is your nipples may be worn from dry firing or age. when this happens the #10 will be way to tight then the #11 will seem to big. if you were to really mic out the nipples they usually become mushroom shaped. then when you fire the gun you will have some caps going off and some not then caps falling off the nipples all the time. new nipples will cure that. as for clean up warm soapy water works the best. do not use gun oil on the gun at all. petroleum and black powder do not mix. graphite on the innards works best if you need oil. only use olive oil. other wise bore butter is what you use. powder measures, flask rags, a capper is not necessary always take screw drivers as the screws always come loose and learn how to field strip the gun as real black powder shooters have to know how to take apart their guns and clean them. at the range i always take a bottle of warm wate and have a cleaning brush ready and a rag. AFter several shots or cylinders you will have to remove the cylinder and clean the arbor shaft. especially on an 1858 as the shaft is smaller. black powder fouling is easy to clean but messy. get used to it. overall though its fun as heck. pm me if you have any other questions.