Selling an 03A3 ?

[hylander]

So I have an 03A3 that has been sporterized.
Can I sell this FTF since it is over 50yr. old ?
I do not have a C&R

[littlejake]

So I have an 03A3 that has been sporterized.
Can I sell this FTF since it is over 50yr. old ?
I do not have a C&R

I think so. It may have lost C&R status by being a sporterized former military rifle. But, the exemption in Penal Code 12078 (t)(2) is not predicated on C&R status -- just a long gun 50 years old or greater.

You don't need a C&R license to sell under 12078 (t)(2) to another CA resident. Nor does the receiving party.

[EOD Guy]

I think so. It may have lost C&R status by being a sporterized former military rifle. But, the exemption in Penal Code 12078 (t)(2) is not predicated on C&R status -- just a long gun 50 years old or greater.

You don't need a C&R license to sell under 12078 (t)(2) to another CA resident. Nor does the receiving party.

The Penal Code exception requires the rifle to be both over 50 years old AND a C&R under Federal law.

[littlejake]

The Penal Code exception requires the rifle to be both over 50 years old AND a C&R under Federal law.

You are correct --

"(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor. "

I believe the 03A3 sporter lost its C&R status because the federal law defining C&R requires military arms to be in original configuration.

I'm not seeing the phrase original configuration in the CFR. But, the ATF website states:
""

See: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

I see a lot of folks on gunbroker.com who seem to ignore the original configuration requirement; but, I believe they are potentially setting themselves up for an illegal transfer.

IMO, the OP loses the question of a FTF, non-CA dealer transfer; and the safest way is to PPT via a CA dealer.

[hylander]

So what if I put it back in a crappy original stock ?

[littlejake]

So what if I put it back in a crappy original stock ?

Restoring to original configuration is an option that would seem to put it back under the 12078(t)(2) transfer exemption.

[AngryPossum]

Who is to say your 1903A3 wasn't sporterized Over 50 years ago?

[Argonaut]

I agree.......There is a guy always at the local gun shows that has tables full of (C&R) guns that he sells under the nose of the Cal DOJ and ATF. Many are "sporterized" military rifles. I bought a M1917 from him that has the stock cut down, the ears milled off, and is drilled/tapped for a scope mount.

[hylander]

Who is to say your 1903A3 wasn't sporterized Over 50 years ago?

Actually I'm pretty sure it was in the 50's.
Anyways I'm wanting to trade it for a Marlin 30-30

[emcon5]

"(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor. "

The referenced section of the Federal Regs says 2 things about "Original configuration", Jack and schidt.

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

The ATF pulled the "Original Configuration" thing out of their arse by globally applying requirements outlined "ATF Ruling 85-10" which dealt with importing surplus firearms to all C&Rs. Text can be found Here, bottom of the page.

I'm not seeing the phrase original configuration in the CFR. But, the ATF website states:
""

See: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

[EOD Guy]

The referenced section of the Federal Regs says 2 things about "Original configuration", Jack and schidt.



The ATF pulled the "Original Configuration" thing out of their arse by globally applying requirements outlined "ATF Ruling 85-10" which dealt with importing surplus firearms to all C&Rs. Text can be found Here, bottom of the page

Actually a firearm must meet the first part of the definition before any of the three requirements can be applied. The first part reads: "Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of such quality other than is associated with firearms for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." Most people find it convenient to ignore this part and go directly to the 50 year rule.

The BATF ruling that military firearms must be in original configuration comes from Congressional intent when the law was written, as explained in the preamble to the regulation. The 50 year rule doesn't apply because sporterized military firearms do not meet the first part of the definition in that the BATF opinion, which existed prior to the import ruling, is that such firearms are not of special interest to collectors. As such, they are thrown out of the definition before you get to apply the 50 year rule.

Former Senator Dole, who had a hand in writing GCA 68, has also stated that Congressional intent was to include military firearms only if in original condition.

You may or may not agree with the opinion (I don't.) but it has the force of law.

Unfortunately, the only place you will find Congressional intent mentioned in writing is in several different editions of the Federal Register from 1968 where there are several discussions coming from the public comment period. As far as I know, editions of the Federal Register from that period are not available on line.

[tmncali]

From the FAQ of the ATF pub 5300.11 rev Dec. 2007 C&R list

[littlejake]

My thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I suspect this is not the first time this issue has been discussed on Calguns.

Personally, I have wondered where the original configuration requirement came from.

This thread clarifies the origin of the original configuration requirement (although one may not agree with the requirement), its application to PC 12078(t)(2) and specifically the question of what minor changes are permitted and the implications of a sporterized stock.

It would seem that the previous two posts nail down the issue.

Kindest regards,

Jake

[hylander]

From the FAQ of the ATF pub 5300.11 rev Dec. 2007 C&R list

Thanks;
Basically I need to put it back into an orignal style stock and remove
the Scope.

[emcon5]

Actually a firearm must meet the first part of the definition before any of the three requirements can be applied. The first part reads: "Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of such quality other than is associated with firearms for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." Most people find it convenient to ignore this part and go directly to the 50 year rule.

I disagree with your interpretation.

Lets look at it again:

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

This defines what Curios or relics are. It is not a prerequisite, or it would say so.

To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

Explains what makes a specific firearm a C&R, "of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." Simply it has to be one of the following:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

That is why they are "of special interest..."

The intent of Senator Dole is all well and good, but that is not what the cited regulation says in remarkably plain English. I also understand why that interpretation would be applied to an import request, but I can't see how a reasonable person would come up with the "Original configuration" requirement even from the most tortured reading of the regulation.

I am not arguing that according to the current policy of ATF that Original Configuration is necessary for C&R Status, I am just saying that deriving that from the text of the regulation based on a ruling on imports is B.S.